yasir~
Since the beginning
Works in Karachi Pakistan

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DISCUSSION

Re: ART vs art (was : Pondering the social sculpture, P1)


Liza: v.insightful. I would add a corollary now that 'star wars is on
the backburner but not out yet': some people have been making a
deliberate choice and returning to earth and forest from the
spaceship/space-colony/'colonized'-space/'white'-space delusion, after
having participated in a lost cause, many are now '...without a cause',
again.

Remember bucky 'spaceship earth'. That was sweet but not true. The
'earth' is still bigger than the 'spaceship'. Also: There are no aliens,
no final frontier and no meteors to ride into the penumbra. The
fascination has been a fearful hallucinating experience, characteristic
of modern life and society? And of course federally funded.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org] On Behalf
Of Liza Sabater
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 9:47 AM
To: Jim Andrews
Cc: List@Rhizome. Org
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: ART vs art (was : Pondering the social sculpture,
P1)

At 4:10 AM -0800 11/18/02, Jim Andrews wrote:

I am trying to figure out who said what but I do want to clarify a
point. I definitely was not using the word Art to describe a personal
search. I was using Art to mean "ART, Inc".

I do not only personally think but, given that I help write the
grants, that the "ART, Inc." is not conducive to creating Art. Let
me put it another way: I have seen the dark side and I don't like it.

When Curt or Mark asked, "If art falls in the forest, does it make a
sound?" I answered, YES for the forest and NO for the world or ART,
Inc. Artists have always had to make a decision between making a
sound in the forest versus making a sound in the art world. That's
the way things have always been. But nowadays it is even more
pressing because there are curators, foundation directors and gallery
owners who are weighing this decision as well.

What is exciting and yet overwhelming is that there is a real shift
happening out there. More and more people are pondering the forest
because what they see in the art "world" is way passed saving. This
mean that more and more people have not a clue as to where things are
heading to but they know they are going somewhere.

I guess the forest has always been the place for art but many are
just starting to reckon with this.

Liza

+ dancing days are here again as the summer evenings grow

DISCUSSION

Re: ART IS ILLUSTRATION


Dear fellows mark/c :

you are really arguing about the question: ' illustration of what? '=

hence art as socially framed idea that frames 'it?

DISCUSSION

Re: Infinite Matrix... not an 'operation'


Aha! (re ivrit)

Do you know if the turkish-urdu connection is one of grammar,
syntactics, meaning reality-structure or just vocabulary-constabulary.
Because I can understand/pick up, through the grammatical structure,
some related languages: Punjabi, sanskritized-hindi, sindhi, gujrati,
and dialects all over n.india/paksitan, but Turkish or Arabic or
Persian: Very little or not at all except vocab-particular words.
Anyway.

Re urdu, as one 'story' goes, it was not a language of the soldiery
(which it eventually became known as, with some amount of martial pride)
but a 'local' language of the environs of Dehli, 'Dilli' picked up by
the soldiers. has ordinary origins. Must have been where the soldiers
dwelt ate shopped <the bazaar> drank <tavern meikhana> visited "houses"
near the bazaar mahal fort, raised families multiplied. One, such as a
soldier, was born to family and clan caste professions and was willing
to take chances based on ones abilities and fate. Imagine whole royal
tent 'cities' moving with the emperor/smaller rajas where ever they
decided to go and be.

Taste and position must have mattered as it does now. Corollary: the
first urdu 'verse' is attributed to wali deccani (17 c. south India)
some mughals+ had moved there from the north. It was in a couplet (two
rhymed verses) with one Persian and second urdu verse in meter, the
scene inside a household, the subject the walk of the servant girl.
Plebian domestic servants rubbing meters and feet with persians turks.
In color this would be black & white: light skinned and dark bodied like
'a mole' on the lovers fair 'turk' cheek.

I am tempted. So for taste here are urdu verses from 18c by ghalib. says
he:

They come from beyond (the unknown, the veil, the hidden) the subjects
of my thought/
Ghalib, sound of the pen (etching paper)is the voice of heaven.

And also:

What do you want to know about the Warm-intensity of the Tavern
<meikhana: existence on earth> of Madness <junoon, psychosis>
Where even the Sky <gardoon: eternal, big open, the source of all
inspiration/words/beings> is just one bowl of dust <one waste basket>

Ghalib is known for his 'color' of philosophical contradictions of
existence. There's immense cognitive confidence and pride, but the
decline had already set in!

Faiz says in 1940s (100yrs later):

You haven't come, the night of waiting hasn't passed yet
The morning searching, passes again and again.

And also:

No flowers have Bloomed, haven't seen Him/Her <friend, lover: neut
gender in urdu: >, haven't had a Drink
In a strange color <mood> has Spring passed this last time
[I am/ or the spring is estranged: modern impulse 1940s india]

Hope you had en'joy'ment.

[My transl. trying to closely follow the grammar. so I must have filled
in for ghalib and faiz. Hope they'll forgive and rest easy.]

peace is about power and ability for destruction, and self control and
will for justice. Shalom. Times have been a-changing.

-----Original Message-----
From: josh zeidner [mailto:jjzeidner@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:14 AM
To: husain@cyber.net.pk
Subject: RE: RHIZOME\_RAW: Re: Infinite Matrix... (a protest) (a question
& a reply)2

ivrit = eng. hebrew.

yasir means something more like 'upright' something
that stands straight under turbulance. so the meaning
may be similar. hebrew and arabic are very closely
related as are aramaic, syrian, chaldean, etc. Urdu
is a relative of Turkish and somewhat related to
arabic( and relative to sanskrit, a latecomer to the
indus valley ), as you have mentioned.

-josh

DISCUSSION

Re: Pondering the social sculpture, P1


liza says:
...If life is creativity and creativity is life, it cannot be sculpted, molded, qualified or quantified. Life and creativity cannot be art because they cannot be curated nor collected. Art is the attempt to apprehend the unattainable. It is a failure that some make it look
more fabulously than others.

>these are profound and complicated observations,l. here's a comment to try to look at something in there:

you've described beauys limitations beautifully
but also: what is the aim of curating, if it does not affect the life and creativity around it, through the art or through the curating. It does anyway. You say 'Art is the attempt to apprehend the unattainable'. The attempt to apprehend the unattainable is attainable (by an author-subject), in life and creativity, (and in the monastery,) but not in art (as you mention) (as the author-subject is no longer there, only 'traces'. The failure is always there, but the attempt is not futile. It is the same with the media, and any media.

There's 'more' than a one way relationship: life>>art because the subject, the observer can, after stepping away from 'experiencing the art', do anything in life unpredictably creatively with unpredictable consequences.

so the limitation, the 'museum' socio-economic framework' that beuys operates in is a narrow evangelical vision without guarantees (no theology as you say). It is a speck in the mutiverse.

but the connections of the speck to the multiverse for each and every work: (the impact)this and its limitations are what is truly 'real'(?), [unless one has gone 'beyond' or 'anticipated' the work.]

One is still a monk but not removed from the world. no monastery either. Is the balance satisfactory. is the impact of a rhizome satisfactory. if anyone tries numbers on this, thay haven't got it yet. the rhizome extends through many unpredictable escape routes. Mark has in his statement gone beyond beuys or potentially so.

[cut-past whole link]
http://www.newlangtonarts.org/view_event.php?category=Network&archive=1&displayYear 02&&eventId5):

When does this become a movement? we dont really need an answer. just dont sell it like valery.

y

DISCUSSION

Re: Pondering the social sculpture, P1 - beuys motherhood


>> Each person must point out the way towards anthropological
understanding thru his field of work. That's what life is involved with
- politics too. If one of my students should one day rear her children
in a better way, then for me that is more important than just having
taught a great artist