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DISCUSSION

BuyNothingDay Greenspan & Miss World


Buy nothing day is a great idea as far as consumerism, globalization,
agressive marketing, and 'saturated' American life-styles are concerned.

Lets not forget the many other sides of this: the influence of American
lifestyles on the world, the out-of -control consumerism being
aggressively promoted in the poorest countries, the already
out-of-control senseless 'something-for-every-need' consumerism in South
Asia, and I'm sure many other parts of the world. I give thanks that
thanksgiving is not part of this deal in the rest of the world. Will it
ever be?

But every part of the world today, urban or rural, is being poisoned by
the 'attidude of consumerism', as it is, all entwined with class
sensibilities, status, and things of such insane nature. Here's
Greenspan calling the market wild:

AG: But unfettered competitive capitalism is by no means fully accepted
as the optimal economic paradigm, at least as yet. Some of those
involved in public policy often see competition as too frenetic. This
different perspective is captured most clearly for me in a soliloquy
attributed to a prominent European leader several years ago. He asked,
"What is the market? It is the law of the jungle, the law of nature. And
what is civilization? It is the struggle against nature." A major
determinant of regulatory regimes is how a rule of law is applied to
strike a balance between the perceived benefits of wholly unfettered
markets and the perceived societal costs of overly fierce competition.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2002/20021119/default.h
tm

whether one agrees with all of the above or not, here's another aspect
which is likely to be very revealing about the rest of the world: women
as consumables: Miss World running away in shock from Nigeria [death
toll 500 ?] article: World has no place for Miss World By Sanjay Suri
http://www.dawn.com/2002/11/27/int10.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org] On Behalf
Of Ivan Pope
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:21 PM
To: Francis Hwang; list@rhizome.org
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Buy Nothing Day

----- Original Message -----
From: Francis Hwang <francis@rhizome.org>
> And although some of the references in the NAN piece could've been
explained for the benefit of non-USian members, overall I don't see why
its
topicality should be in question, considering how political this list
is. In
the U.S., we consume a tremendous amount of junk, and then our
government
enforces economic imperialism using a number of brutal mechanisms,
ranging
from armed intervention to the Bretton Woods institutions. It's a
problem
that comes out of the U.S., but it affects the entire world in a fairly
direct way.
>
> Saying U.S. consumerism is only of interest to U.S. citizens is like
saying the Holocaust is only of interest to Germans.

Actually I was saying that Thanksgiving Day only means anything to
citizens
of the US. In the UK there is no buying surge at this point of the
calendar.
And we don't know when Thanksgiving Day is or why. So to tie a no buying
day
to a purely US event means the day is at least conceptually a US thing.
I know its sometimes hard for US residents to see that we do not
automatically understand your cultural references - but surely that is
part
of the problem.
Cheers,
Ivan

+ the internet is not your life.
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DISCUSSION

Nazareans


We understand the 'reality

DISCUSSION

Re: ART vs art (was : Pondering the social


> Yap. absolutely certain.
+Also, there's no Cold War any more.
and there's no 'electronic frontier', either.
+And no interstellar travel either - only unmanned spacecrafts which send postcards from other planets. We've been to the moon!

y

DISCUSSION

Re: ART, Inc. necessary evil


>on the t,c exchange:

c:

again, it sounds like you've got the secret knowledge [decoder ring] we all lack. Might someone understand Pollock and still not like him? Is the reason most people dislike contemporary art because they haven't been properly educated [programmed], is it because contemporary art is dismissed and derided by the media, or is it simply because a lot of contemporary art is self-referential, academic, overly cerebral, and boring? Might the artist be responsible to create work that acts as a bridge to bring people into a deeper appreciation of contemporary art, or is that just the job of the educator?

Mind art. Smat art. Educated art. Art (even Art Inc.) has only recently been about such things. And I think those emphases have only made art worse, less resonant, thinner, more parochial [even if your parish happens to be New York City]. "Everyone is smart; not everyone is brave." _

++ [comments]
it is possible not to like pollock despite having (better than education) a thinking mind, which thinks about the world, has a worldview.
++
education also does not guarantee. genuineness or originality. bravery as c says. it only opens doors, gives vehicles, for communicating, gives hints, good and bad ones. gives information.
++
so, contemp art is derided by the media, and it is also (as you say) 'self-referential, academic, overly cerebral, and boring?'
++
The artist must make bridges in some areas and at some levels, but not necesarily in many other areas. so the artist decides where to and where not to connect with people, whether in social life, in the piece of work, or in doing the work, promoting it, and so on. the same for engaging to educate.
++
The educator is no guarantee for appreciation, although it might establish the silly 'awe' factor. but much is also parochial, yes.
+++
in a nutshell: an 'education' may make one 'smart, but on its own, it does not make one brave. so the desired outcome is still unpredictable.

c:
again, it sounds like you've got the secret knowledge [decoder ring] we all lack. Might someone understand Pollock and still not like him? Is the reason most people dislike contemporary art because they haven't been properly educated [programmed], is it because contemporary art is dismissed and derided by the media, or is it simply because a lot of contemporary art is self-referential, academic, overly cerebral, and boring? Might the artist be responsible to create work that acts as a bridge to bring people into a deeper appreciation of contemporary art, or is that just the job of the educator?

Mind art. Smat art. Educated art. Art (even Art Inc.) has only recently been about such things. And I think those emphases have only made art worse, less resonant, thinner, more parochial [even if your parish happens to be New York City]. "Everyone is smart; not everyone is brave." _

DISCUSSION

Re: Mag G2K / NN, ...


I am, and we are, happy to be the r-raw crowd-mind, and I take the
paranoia in this tower of babel/babble, and associated delusions of
towerful greatness to be a fairly accurate description of the writer who
is being persecuted by the crowd-mind. This is uncannily precise. The
writer does not know any exit from the tower. Although I do wish it were
a tower of song rather than the crashing pans of the tower kitchen at
the top.

There is always an exit, and
you ARE innocent. (hard to believe? There IS a double-bind here).

[so this is neurotic not psychotic as the explanation was offered by the
writer himself - or is it herself.]

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-list@rhizome.org [mailto:owner-list@rhizome.org] On Behalf
Of -IID42 Kandinskij @27+
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:36 AM
To: list@rhizome.org
Cc: thingist@BBS.THING.NET
Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Mag G2K / NN, the awful awful art-world,
politicians, west, east, xx, xy, xyz, etc. etc.

Probably the most telling point of likeness between the crowd-mind and
the
psychoneurosis - paranoia, especially - is the "delusion of
persecution."
In cases of paranoia the notion that the patient is the victim of all
sorts of intrigue and persecution is so common as to be a distinguishing
symptom of this disease. Such delusions are known to be defenses, or
compensation mechanisms, growing out of the patient's exaggerated
feeling
of self-importance. The delusion of grandeur and that of being
persecuted
commonly go together. The reader will recall the passage quoted from the
pamphlet given to me by a typical paranoiac. The author of the document
mentioned feels that he has a great mission, that of exposing and
reforming the conditions in hospitals for the insane. He protests his
innocence. In jail he feels like Christ among his tormentors.

+ dancing days are here again as the summer evenings grow