Nad
Since the beginning
Works in Berlin Germany

PORTFOLIO (3)
Discussions (41) Opportunities (0) Events (0) Jobs (0)
DISCUSSION

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the name for this type of work?


Jim Andrews wrote:

> > sometimes its up to you like e.g. in the genetic art program
> > Kandid:
> > http://kandid.sourceforge.net/
>
> In this project, is the "genetic information" the graphics themselves
> or properties of the graphics?
>

the image data is the "flesh" i.e. that what grows from
your genes. so it has to be specified how this "growing"
should work. in kandid you can do this by hand (see documentation)
however in the given examples this has been done already.
the genes or chromosomes are depending on our example they
are for example parameters.

take for example the black and white images in the top row.
they are the attractor of an IFS. which IFS ou take depends
on your parameters (you can actually edit these in the population
panel)

>
> > > Concerning the method of selection in Kate & Michael's piece of
> the
> > > images, I don't know whether it's totally random.
> > >
> >
> > i think its random, it would be interesting to implement a rule base
> GA.
>
> would it be accurate to say that they leave the 'evolution' to the
> livejournal images (they draw the images from that database)? the
> database simply changes over time, though (rather than 'evolving'), so
> maybe not.

yes i understod this also in this way.

i guess the crucial thing, if i understand correctly, is
> that the change be based on the previous iteration?
>

i think they choose the comic images based on some keywords.
so they make a choice. like lets say for each keyword (or a set of)
there is an image. one could try to "optimize" this choice, like
by providing different choices (permuting the assignment of
keyword to comic image). this would give a (parent) set
of comic strips for a given document. now the viewer could
decide which strips are "best" (choice of the fittest)
and one could use this for evolving the choices in order to
get an "optimal cartoonization". it would be interesting to
see what comes out of this, since i could imageine that e.g.
if you choose a fighting scene for the keyword tension
or a electrical tension sign for the keyword tension, then
if you combine this with a comic image for "relationship"
(however this looks like...) then it would be iteresting to
see peoples choice. but may there is also no interesting outcome...

>
> Someone on this list, perhaps a year ago, pointed out that it is
> possible to run Shockwave under Linux. I could be wrong, but I think
> it was via Crossover. You are correct, however, that there is no
> official Linux version of Shockwave from Macromedia.
>
oh yes i didnt check the crossover or wine. there is
a commercial solution, but its 30$ and macromedia
was perpetually announcing linux support....
thanks for the hint :-)

nad

DISCUSSION

remixability and truth


an interesting aspect in the current discussion
about remixability (see postings of Lev Manovich
as of 11/15/2005 and 11/28/2005)
is the question of how remixability keeps the
inner truth of things. or as one can also put it:

MODULES ARE NOT GENERICALLY FREE OF CONTEXT

as an example how problematic this is i want to
comment on some recent blog on the rhizome main
page namely the one about the "Introduction to
the fascinating patterns of Visual Math":
http://rhizome.org/fp.rhiz?id

DISCUSSION

Re: Re: Re: Re: what is the name for this type of work?


Jim Andrews wrote:

> Hi Nad,
>
> Yes, I see that evolutionary or genetic algorithms/works are related
> to the type of work i mentioned (ie, generative, aleatorical, where
> each thing generated is not presumed to be a gem, and one is
> explicitly or implicitly invited to select concerning which are
> meaningful (to oneself)).
>
> I don't know much about genetic/evolutionary algorithms. Is it
> possible to give a brief definition?
>

a genetic algorithm is basically a mathematical model of evolution
(not the kansas schoolbook one, but the darwin one....)
you start out with a giving (parent) set of data, lets say
a set of strings (the strings are bearing the "genetic information"
like in the DNA). then you reshuffle in order to get a new string.
There are several variants of reshuffling (for details see
crossover etc. in wikipedia), like reversing the order of
letters in one string or mixing two different strings (thats
how humans do it...). in this way you get NEW strings.
now you have to choose which one should be your new parent strings.
this choice is often based on rules (choice of the fittest)
sometimes its up to you like e.g. in the genetic art program
Kandid:
http://kandid.sourceforge.net/

so the term genetic ALGORITHM (GA) is more or less settled, the term
genetic ART however not. some people denote with this term
artwork which involves genetic algorithms or at least some
evolutionary principles, in this case they call these kind of
artwork also evolutionary. a very nice example is e.g.
Golan Levins alphabeth synthesis machine:
http://alphabet.tmema.org/

other people mean with genetic art artwork where you fumble around
with real genes, like Eduardo Kac and his green bunny. Here the
evolutionary aspect is not important, the remixing of genes
however is.

> Concerning the method of selection in Kate & Michael's piece of the
> images, I don't know whether it's totally random.
>

i think its random, it would be interesting to implement a rule base GA.

> I see you're pretty seriously into art, programming, and math at
> http://daytar.de . Interesting work!
>
>
yes may be i am a bit too serious about everything...:-)

you have also very nice stuff on your webpage. unfortunately
i couldnt see the shockwave parts, since i am breeding on linux.
i am skeptical wether this problem will be resolved with
adobes new shopping spree. ..

Nad

DISCUSSION

Re: Re: what is the name for this type of work?


> I was writing about work by someone else that fit the description i
> offered
> and wasn't sure if there was a word to describe that sort of work. Am
> glad
> no one wrote back that it was type whatever. Was thinking of Grafik
> Dynamo
> by Kate Armstrong and Michael Tippett (
> http://turbulence.org/Works/dynamo ).

> Yet while it's constructed, there are often erm guidelines or rules
> that we
> use in the construction. So that, for instance, when different people
> read
> this sentence, what they think it means will not be identical, but
> will
> share a great deal because language definitions and guidelines and
> rules are
> shared amongst people--though, once again, two people's notions of
> what
> those are aren't identical.
>

very true. :-) . language can be terribly redundant. I thought with the term "work" you meant programming
work not art work....:-)

but still also if you talk about art work, from your description
one could easily get the picture of an evolutionary or genetic art work,
especially if one interpretes the term "meaningful", as
"having a value, which allows for selection".
i know i am on very slippery terrain
now, but even for kate and michaels work (which is
i guess definitely not evolutionary art in the usual sense) the following is true: if their selection (like of the feeded sentences) is
not completely random (IS IT?), then they must have had some RULES
specifying what they thought was and had a meaning. and they
must have assigned values to what they thought was more or less
meaningful.

so what i mean is that their work can in some sense be interpreted
as an evolutionary artwork, where evolution stops after the
first generation.

but then one could be interested in getting on in evolution, i.e.
like by letting the viewers select their favorites and store
them again in some datbase. So this time the viewers would
decide about whats been meaningful to them. a.s.o.
..and finally one gets the top of evolution...the ultimate
meaningful comic.....:-O

nad

DISCUSSION

RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3D Holographic projectors?


Dirk Vekemans wrote:

>
> > Dirk Vekemans wrote:
> >> it may have been something similar to these:
> > > http://www.laser-magic.com/transscreen.html
> > >
> > >
> > with 3D projection i mean something where you have to wear
> > glasses in order to see 3D. the above link is of that kind.
>
> Don't know Nad, but they specifically claim you don't need glasses on
> the
> page...

often these companies like to be blurry to sell their products, but
actually i found this website rather clear.

so what they mean is that you dont need glasses for viewing the 2D projection on the transscreen. and since the 2D projection is so to say
floating in the air as it is projected to a transparent foil,
the 2D image may look a bit as if it WOULD BE 3D, but it IS NOT 3D.
you have no depth in your image.

you get a 3D image with the transscreen if you wear glasses and if the
projected material is made for 3D, just like in any
other 3D projection.

nad

nad
+
-> post: list@rhizome.org
-> questions: info@rhizome.org
-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
+
Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php