ARTBASE (1)
BIO
Michael Szpakowski is an artist, composer, writer and educator.
CV:
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/szpakowski_cv.pdf
Video work:
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/vlog/ScenesOfProvincialLife.cgi
Stills:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/szpako
12 Remixes:
http://www.michaelszpakowski.org/mickiewicz/
CV:
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/szpakowski_cv.pdf
Video work:
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/vlog/ScenesOfProvincialLife.cgi
Stills:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/szpako
12 Remixes:
http://www.michaelszpakowski.org/mickiewicz/
Re: Re[2]: RHIZOME_RAW: finding net.art in the rhizome artbase
So lets test this: I wish to state that I refuse
permission for my pieces on the artbase to be used in
this way. Anyone else?
Michael
--- joseph the barbarian <joseph@electrichands.com>
wrote:
> Agreed...I speculate that many people from each
> different "era" of rhizome
> are no longer active, thus judging would be based
> upon current interests,
> not what was best at the time. I don't care to be
> part of a People
> Magazine's best dressed list.
>
> joseph the barbarian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eryk Salvaggio" <eryk@maine.rr.com>
> To: <list@rhizome.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: RHIZOME_RAW: finding net.art in
> the rhizome artbase
>
>
> >
> >
> > I never agreed to enter my work into a competition
> when I allowed my work
> to
> > be shown on Rhizome's servers (for no
> compensation.) Nor am I comfortable
> > with the idea of any artists work "competing" in a
> populist pony show
> > without thier permission.
> >
> > -e.
> >
> > +
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
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permission for my pieces on the artbase to be used in
this way. Anyone else?
Michael
--- joseph the barbarian <joseph@electrichands.com>
wrote:
> Agreed...I speculate that many people from each
> different "era" of rhizome
> are no longer active, thus judging would be based
> upon current interests,
> not what was best at the time. I don't care to be
> part of a People
> Magazine's best dressed list.
>
> joseph the barbarian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eryk Salvaggio" <eryk@maine.rr.com>
> To: <list@rhizome.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 8:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: RHIZOME_RAW: finding net.art in
> the rhizome artbase
>
>
> >
> >
> > I never agreed to enter my work into a competition
> when I allowed my work
> to
> > be shown on Rhizome's servers (for no
> compensation.) Nor am I comfortable
> > with the idea of any artists work "competing" in a
> populist pony show
> > without thier permission.
> >
> > -e.
> >
> > +
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms
> set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
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Re: Re[2]: RHIZOME_RAW: finding net.art in the rhizome artbase
Yep -I agree -I think my first response was a little
guarded for fear of seeming a bad sport, but Eryk,
bless him , goes straight to the heart of it.
Can we not have a format without the competitive
element? -god knows there's enough of that in our
lives -I'd be happy with David's picks, or T Whid's
faves or whatever as a stimulus to discussion...but
the voting smells of the bread and circus element of
the vilest "reality" TV.
best
michael
--- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> I never agreed to enter my work into a competition
> when I allowed my work to
> be shown on Rhizome's servers (for no compensation.)
> Nor am I comfortable
> with the idea of any artists work "competing" in a
> populist pony show
> without thier permission.
>
> -e.
>
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
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guarded for fear of seeming a bad sport, but Eryk,
bless him , goes straight to the heart of it.
Can we not have a format without the competitive
element? -god knows there's enough of that in our
lives -I'd be happy with David's picks, or T Whid's
faves or whatever as a stimulus to discussion...but
the voting smells of the bread and circus element of
the vilest "reality" TV.
best
michael
--- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> I never agreed to enter my work into a competition
> when I allowed my work to
> be shown on Rhizome's servers (for no compensation.)
> Nor am I comfortable
> with the idea of any artists work "competing" in a
> populist pony show
> without thier permission.
>
> -e.
>
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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Re: finding net.art in the rhizome artbase
This is sort of facetious but it might be quite fun to
do the same exercise for pieces that were *rejected*
for the Artbase in any given three month period.
Not that I'm volunteering ( except I'd be happy to
forward my two rejection notes)
best
michael
--- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
> I'd be glad to Rachel. And thanks fo rthe
> opportunity to work with Rhizome. You guys are
> great.
>
> Feisal, would you please query your database and
> send me a list of the werks that were added to the
> artbase during its first three months? Thanks.
>
> I'll work on coordinating the vote.
>
> My first thought is
> 1. To publish the list Feisel generates.
> 2. Ask Rhizome's RAW and RARE community to send us
> their favorites
> 3. Then put the top twenty to a vote by the entire
> Rhizome community
> 4. Publish the TOP FIVE
>
> If anyone has any ideas they'd like to contribute
> please voice them.
>
>
> david goldschmidt
> www.personify.tv
> www.mediatrips.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rachel Greene
> To: David Goldschmidt
> Cc: list@rhizome.org ; Feisal
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: finding net.art in the
> rhizome artbase
>
>
> David -- Mind meld!
>
> Feisal Ahmad, who has been working as an intern
> for us for the last year, just started TODAY as
> Rhizome's official Content Coordinator. It's not a
> full-time job, but one of his biggest tasks will be
> to develop programs, such as the one you suggest, to
> make the ArtBase easier to use.
>
> We want to develop a number of tools/programs to
> make the ArtBase more vital, visible and
> user-friendly. In fact, we have grant pending that
> we'll hear about in the next two months that will
> make this much easier to accomplish.
>
> But, I think the top 5 idea is great. Maybe you
> want to wrangle these together and we can publish
> them somewhere on the site?
>
>
> -- Rachel
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 04:16 AM, David
> Goldschmidt wrote:
>
>
> hi all-
>
> I have an idea.
>
> I have been a rhizomer "forever" and, as many
> others have pointed out, searching for net.art by
> artist or alphabetically is a rather painful
> experience.
>
> I would like to suggest a third option.
>
> Going back in time, I would like the rhizome
> community to vote for the 5 "best" net.art werks for
> a given period (say three months). For example, we
> would go back and look at all the art that was
> "released", created, etc from January 1998 to March
> 1998 and pick the top 5 werks.
>
> And then Rhizome could let people use the "top
> five" lists to find great net.art that is in their
> database.
>
> Also, I think this approach is a great way to
> see how net.art has changed over time.
>
> Unleash the egos and let the debate begin! This
> could be fun.
>
> Best,
>
> david goldschmidt
> www.personify.tv
> www.mediatrips.com
>
>
=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
do the same exercise for pieces that were *rejected*
for the Artbase in any given three month period.
Not that I'm volunteering ( except I'd be happy to
forward my two rejection notes)
best
michael
--- David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv> wrote:
> I'd be glad to Rachel. And thanks fo rthe
> opportunity to work with Rhizome. You guys are
> great.
>
> Feisal, would you please query your database and
> send me a list of the werks that were added to the
> artbase during its first three months? Thanks.
>
> I'll work on coordinating the vote.
>
> My first thought is
> 1. To publish the list Feisel generates.
> 2. Ask Rhizome's RAW and RARE community to send us
> their favorites
> 3. Then put the top twenty to a vote by the entire
> Rhizome community
> 4. Publish the TOP FIVE
>
> If anyone has any ideas they'd like to contribute
> please voice them.
>
>
> david goldschmidt
> www.personify.tv
> www.mediatrips.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rachel Greene
> To: David Goldschmidt
> Cc: list@rhizome.org ; Feisal
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 11:34 AM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: finding net.art in the
> rhizome artbase
>
>
> David -- Mind meld!
>
> Feisal Ahmad, who has been working as an intern
> for us for the last year, just started TODAY as
> Rhizome's official Content Coordinator. It's not a
> full-time job, but one of his biggest tasks will be
> to develop programs, such as the one you suggest, to
> make the ArtBase easier to use.
>
> We want to develop a number of tools/programs to
> make the ArtBase more vital, visible and
> user-friendly. In fact, we have grant pending that
> we'll hear about in the next two months that will
> make this much easier to accomplish.
>
> But, I think the top 5 idea is great. Maybe you
> want to wrangle these together and we can publish
> them somewhere on the site?
>
>
> -- Rachel
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 6, 2003, at 04:16 AM, David
> Goldschmidt wrote:
>
>
> hi all-
>
> I have an idea.
>
> I have been a rhizomer "forever" and, as many
> others have pointed out, searching for net.art by
> artist or alphabetically is a rather painful
> experience.
>
> I would like to suggest a third option.
>
> Going back in time, I would like the rhizome
> community to vote for the 5 "best" net.art werks for
> a given period (say three months). For example, we
> would go back and look at all the art that was
> "released", created, etc from January 1998 to March
> 1998 and pick the top 5 werks.
>
> And then Rhizome could let people use the "top
> five" lists to find great net.art that is in their
> database.
>
> Also, I think this approach is a great way to
> see how net.art has changed over time.
>
> Unleash the egos and let the debate begin! This
> could be fun.
>
> Best,
>
> david goldschmidt
> www.personify.tv
> www.mediatrips.com
>
>
=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
__________________________________
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Web Art in the Whitney Biennial?
Eduardo -it absolutely *wasn't* a pop at you.
It occured to me after I posted that it might read
like that and although I think I would have
disagreemnets with you it was not those I was
expressing there.
Rather the whole thing was a relatively unrigorous
meditation about why, although I absolutely don't
share Curt's starting point, I find myself so often in
absolute solidarity with him on matters cultural ( &
I'm a Trot of the old school -I sell socialist papers
in the street each week, when I'm employed I usually
end up being the union rep,I 've covered thousand of
miles marching, I want to see a genuine 'dictatorship
of the proletariat' &c)
I think this is because I think there *is* an
authentic, as opposed to a poisoned, Marxist tradition
and that that tradition is about creating a world
where many of the values and pleasures that Curt quite
rightly celebrates are available to all.
I want to defend *this* Marxism against charges of
cultural dogmatism - even a cursory reading of marx on
literature and art,or Trotsky's magnificent 1920s
writings on culture will show that, much of what is
now understood as 'marxist' cultural theory is a
stalinist or post stalinist academic perversion.
In this spirit I certainly don't reject many of the
thinkers you cite, but I do think they need to be read
carefully and critically.
But, I repeat, not a dig at you!
best
michael
--- Eduardo Navas <eduardo@navasse.net> wrote:
> Hello Michael,
>
> response below:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
> > Any "marxist" who denied on principal the ideas,
> the
> > ability to have real insight, solely on the ground
> of
> > someone's religious beliefs would be guilty not
> only
> > of philistinism but stupidity too, both of which
> > qualities got a considerable leg up first from
> > Stalin's perversion of marxism but also from the
> less
> > wicked but equally distorted readings of
> characters
> > like Althusser.
>
> I can not help to think that you are implicitly
> relating to the last comment
> I sent to the list. So, I feel compelled to
> respond. First, you may not
> have read the whole thread; so, I would like to note
> that the methodology I
> was using was based on poststructural analysis,
> which is much more open than
> just a Marxist stance. To make sure we are on the
> same ground, here is my
> response as it originally appeared:
>
> "There is a form of communication at hand: "just
> thanking him and
> celebrating
> my existence" which implies a certain power dynamic
> (God is in power--you
> worship him). But let's leave my structural
> analysis behind (a structural
> analysis need not be marxist by the way...). I think
> that knowing the
> difference in methods of understanding the world is
> really important to have
> decent communication with others. Most people would
> just argue to death
> their spiritual position without being aware of the
> dynamics of a structural
> approach. I am glad you dismiss structuralism
> (rather turning into
> poststructuralism at the time Foucault was writing
> his text) with an
> understanding of language difference. I really
> appreciate your honesty. I
> would say, however, that, since many people are not
> religious, trying to
> understand how we live within the dynamics of
> hierarchies is a necessity. I
> do not think we should get into a religious
> discussion here however, because
> you already stated the language difference."
>
>
> Second, with all due respect, demonizing certain
> branches of Marxism (which
> I never claimed, but rather was mentioned by Curt)
> in order to open up a
> dialogue is admitting to a particular agenda that
> poses as liberal and all
> inclusive when in fact it is rather a smokescreen
> for not admitting that
> there are major differences between religious and
> dialectic materialist
> ideologies.
>
> The limitations that Curt had already mentioned in
> his previous response
> made it clear that he understood the overall
> relationship to any form of
> structural analysis, not just Marxism -- I could
> have used Derrida who is a
> deconstructionist and did not tackle Marx's
> philolosophy until much later in
> his career. But instead I used Foucault and Said.
> The latter whom would be
> reluctant to be singled-out as a "Marxist," as his
> background is extremely
> diverse in terms of methods of analysis. So to
> point to "stupidity" on such
> an assumption is rather abusive and disrespectful
> not to a particular
> individual but to the expectations out of a
> dialogue, which you yourself are
> closing off by otherizing a position based on
> assumptions of a projected
> ideology.
>
> In the end, Curt explained the separation of
> ideologies best in his response
> to you which I will quote here:
>
> "I believe a spiritual world exists."
> -- Curt
>
> The key here is "believe."
> This contradicts your statement:
>
> "All Marxism at bottom asserts is that ideas don't
> come from nowhere but
> arise out of how we reproduce ourselves and the
> necessities of life - food,
> clothing, shelter."
>
> Here, you indirectly present the very limitation
> that I acknowledged to Curt
> when I wrote on language difference. The major
> difference is "belief." A
> person who dissects the world based on structural
> methods inevitably ends up
> questioning religion itself as well. Roland Barthes
> would call it a social
> myth (See the book Mythologies). And this was very
> well acknowledged by
> Curt. So why should I try to be all inclusive when
> I already understand the
> limitations of such a dialogue? Curt made this
> quite obvious to you in his
> response:
>
> "I'm not so sure that's true. There is no denying
> that reproduction, food,
> clothing, and shelter are ever with us on this
> earth, but I don't know
> whether their persistent presence makes them the
> underlying (or even prime)
> cause for every other thing we do. I've always had
> two eyeballs in my head,
> but not all my actions derive from that fact."
> - Curt
>
> Having said this, it would be unfair to claim an
> extreme position and
> propose that such a dialogue would not be possible.
> Walter Benjamin is
> polemical due to his combination of theology and
> Marxist philosophy. He
> constantly struggled between the two and this
> becomes quite obvious
> throughout his books (See "The task of the
> Translator" in Illuminations:
>
http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/wyrick/debclass/benja.htm).
> If anyone is
> interested in looking further into this tension, I
> recommend The Postmodern
> Bible Reader:
> http://www.semcoop.com/detail/0631219625
> It contains interesting essays on how the bible has
> been read by many
> semioticians and other postructuralists in the 20th
> Century and possible
> religious interpretations of their essays.
>
> I hope that helps clarify my ever-changing
> ideological position.
>
> SiU.
> Eduardo Navas
>
>
>
>
>
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
=====
*** QuickTime large QuickTime NUMBER, it is small, office being nearly office OF the office OF the COMMANDS office OF the film or many nearly time the small order where that, that is the office OF the office OF the COMMANDS QuickTime when into the film, is given, it gives the office OF the
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
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It occured to me after I posted that it might read
like that and although I think I would have
disagreemnets with you it was not those I was
expressing there.
Rather the whole thing was a relatively unrigorous
meditation about why, although I absolutely don't
share Curt's starting point, I find myself so often in
absolute solidarity with him on matters cultural ( &
I'm a Trot of the old school -I sell socialist papers
in the street each week, when I'm employed I usually
end up being the union rep,I 've covered thousand of
miles marching, I want to see a genuine 'dictatorship
of the proletariat' &c)
I think this is because I think there *is* an
authentic, as opposed to a poisoned, Marxist tradition
and that that tradition is about creating a world
where many of the values and pleasures that Curt quite
rightly celebrates are available to all.
I want to defend *this* Marxism against charges of
cultural dogmatism - even a cursory reading of marx on
literature and art,or Trotsky's magnificent 1920s
writings on culture will show that, much of what is
now understood as 'marxist' cultural theory is a
stalinist or post stalinist academic perversion.
In this spirit I certainly don't reject many of the
thinkers you cite, but I do think they need to be read
carefully and critically.
But, I repeat, not a dig at you!
best
michael
--- Eduardo Navas <eduardo@navasse.net> wrote:
> Hello Michael,
>
> response below:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Szpakowski" <szpako@yahoo.com>
> > Any "marxist" who denied on principal the ideas,
> the
> > ability to have real insight, solely on the ground
> of
> > someone's religious beliefs would be guilty not
> only
> > of philistinism but stupidity too, both of which
> > qualities got a considerable leg up first from
> > Stalin's perversion of marxism but also from the
> less
> > wicked but equally distorted readings of
> characters
> > like Althusser.
>
> I can not help to think that you are implicitly
> relating to the last comment
> I sent to the list. So, I feel compelled to
> respond. First, you may not
> have read the whole thread; so, I would like to note
> that the methodology I
> was using was based on poststructural analysis,
> which is much more open than
> just a Marxist stance. To make sure we are on the
> same ground, here is my
> response as it originally appeared:
>
> "There is a form of communication at hand: "just
> thanking him and
> celebrating
> my existence" which implies a certain power dynamic
> (God is in power--you
> worship him). But let's leave my structural
> analysis behind (a structural
> analysis need not be marxist by the way...). I think
> that knowing the
> difference in methods of understanding the world is
> really important to have
> decent communication with others. Most people would
> just argue to death
> their spiritual position without being aware of the
> dynamics of a structural
> approach. I am glad you dismiss structuralism
> (rather turning into
> poststructuralism at the time Foucault was writing
> his text) with an
> understanding of language difference. I really
> appreciate your honesty. I
> would say, however, that, since many people are not
> religious, trying to
> understand how we live within the dynamics of
> hierarchies is a necessity. I
> do not think we should get into a religious
> discussion here however, because
> you already stated the language difference."
>
>
> Second, with all due respect, demonizing certain
> branches of Marxism (which
> I never claimed, but rather was mentioned by Curt)
> in order to open up a
> dialogue is admitting to a particular agenda that
> poses as liberal and all
> inclusive when in fact it is rather a smokescreen
> for not admitting that
> there are major differences between religious and
> dialectic materialist
> ideologies.
>
> The limitations that Curt had already mentioned in
> his previous response
> made it clear that he understood the overall
> relationship to any form of
> structural analysis, not just Marxism -- I could
> have used Derrida who is a
> deconstructionist and did not tackle Marx's
> philolosophy until much later in
> his career. But instead I used Foucault and Said.
> The latter whom would be
> reluctant to be singled-out as a "Marxist," as his
> background is extremely
> diverse in terms of methods of analysis. So to
> point to "stupidity" on such
> an assumption is rather abusive and disrespectful
> not to a particular
> individual but to the expectations out of a
> dialogue, which you yourself are
> closing off by otherizing a position based on
> assumptions of a projected
> ideology.
>
> In the end, Curt explained the separation of
> ideologies best in his response
> to you which I will quote here:
>
> "I believe a spiritual world exists."
> -- Curt
>
> The key here is "believe."
> This contradicts your statement:
>
> "All Marxism at bottom asserts is that ideas don't
> come from nowhere but
> arise out of how we reproduce ourselves and the
> necessities of life - food,
> clothing, shelter."
>
> Here, you indirectly present the very limitation
> that I acknowledged to Curt
> when I wrote on language difference. The major
> difference is "belief." A
> person who dissects the world based on structural
> methods inevitably ends up
> questioning religion itself as well. Roland Barthes
> would call it a social
> myth (See the book Mythologies). And this was very
> well acknowledged by
> Curt. So why should I try to be all inclusive when
> I already understand the
> limitations of such a dialogue? Curt made this
> quite obvious to you in his
> response:
>
> "I'm not so sure that's true. There is no denying
> that reproduction, food,
> clothing, and shelter are ever with us on this
> earth, but I don't know
> whether their persistent presence makes them the
> underlying (or even prime)
> cause for every other thing we do. I've always had
> two eyeballs in my head,
> but not all my actions derive from that fact."
> - Curt
>
> Having said this, it would be unfair to claim an
> extreme position and
> propose that such a dialogue would not be possible.
> Walter Benjamin is
> polemical due to his combination of theology and
> Marxist philosophy. He
> constantly struggled between the two and this
> becomes quite obvious
> throughout his books (See "The task of the
> Translator" in Illuminations:
>
http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/wyrick/debclass/benja.htm).
> If anyone is
> interested in looking further into this tension, I
> recommend The Postmodern
> Bible Reader:
> http://www.semcoop.com/detail/0631219625
> It contains interesting essays on how the bible has
> been read by many
> semioticians and other postructuralists in the 20th
> Century and possible
> religious interpretations of their essays.
>
> I hope that helps clarify my ever-changing
> ideological position.
>
> SiU.
> Eduardo Navas
>
>
>
>
>
> +
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> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
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> +
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> out in the
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=====
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No Web Art in the Whitney Biennial?
Hi Curt
I do think your account of marxism is a bit of a straw
man, or at least I would if there wasn't so much
poisoned marxism around to confuse folk, particularly
in academic circles, where Marx's "not a dogma, but a
guide to action" is continually transformed into its
opposite.
Lenin once said that he'd rather listen to an
intelligent idealist (in the philosophical, not the
popular moral, sense of the word) than a stupid
materialist, or words to that effect.
Any "marxist" who denied on principal the ideas, the
ability to have real insight, solely on the ground of
someone's religious beliefs would be guilty not only
of philistinism but stupidity too, both of which
qualities got a considerable leg up first from
Stalin's perversion of marxism but also from the less
wicked but equally distorted readings of characters
like Althusser.
All marxism at bottom asserts is that ideas don't come
from nowhere but arise out of how we reproduce
ourselves and the necessities of life - food,
clothing, shelter.
I'm not trying to fluffify it here - the consequences
of these ideas are far reaching, but the ideas
themselves are pretty straightforward.
It's indubitably the case that without the things
above listed then
"love and intimacy and thanksgiving and
creativity and celebration and barbaric yawpin'"
which I too value in all their glorious human
particularity and enormously varied manifestations
throughout history, would not occur.
For me the point of being a marxist is to begin to
understand precisely how we can begin to move from
"the realm of necessity to the realm of freedom" - so
that all of us have a chance to lead full and rich
lives and to make art, or whatever we will call it
then, too.
However much I reject your religious beliefs I find
what for me is your humanistic approach to art an
extremely sympathetic one - I suppose the big
difference between us is that I think there's noone
and nothing but us humans & I think we'll have to
struggle *here* to make our kingdom of heaven *here*
on earth.
I'm not sure that the content of that kingdom is in
practice that different.
regards
michael
--- curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com> wrote:
> I freely admit the existence and influence of
> hierarchical structures, and the importance of
> accurately understanding their dynamics. My problem
> is taking love and intimacy and thanksgiving and
> creativity and celebration and barbaric yawpin' and
> reducing them to sociological-driven responses to
> these power structures.
>
> sometimes the dolphins just frolic and the lambs
> just leap.
> http://lab404.com/misc/echoed.gif
>
http://designforfreedom.com/substitud/Movies/typevsm_small.html
>
> peace,
> curt
>
> __
>
> Eduardo Navas wrote:
>
> I am glad you dismiss structuralism (rather turning
> into
> > poststructuralism at the time Foucault was writing
> his text) with an
> > understanding of language difference. I really
> appreciate your
> > honesty. I
> > would say, however, that, since many people are
> not religious, trying
> > to
> > understand how we live within the dynamics of
> hierarchies is a
> > necessity. I
> > do not think we should get into a religious
> discussion here however,
> > because
> > you already stated the language difference.
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
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=====
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I do think your account of marxism is a bit of a straw
man, or at least I would if there wasn't so much
poisoned marxism around to confuse folk, particularly
in academic circles, where Marx's "not a dogma, but a
guide to action" is continually transformed into its
opposite.
Lenin once said that he'd rather listen to an
intelligent idealist (in the philosophical, not the
popular moral, sense of the word) than a stupid
materialist, or words to that effect.
Any "marxist" who denied on principal the ideas, the
ability to have real insight, solely on the ground of
someone's religious beliefs would be guilty not only
of philistinism but stupidity too, both of which
qualities got a considerable leg up first from
Stalin's perversion of marxism but also from the less
wicked but equally distorted readings of characters
like Althusser.
All marxism at bottom asserts is that ideas don't come
from nowhere but arise out of how we reproduce
ourselves and the necessities of life - food,
clothing, shelter.
I'm not trying to fluffify it here - the consequences
of these ideas are far reaching, but the ideas
themselves are pretty straightforward.
It's indubitably the case that without the things
above listed then
"love and intimacy and thanksgiving and
creativity and celebration and barbaric yawpin'"
which I too value in all their glorious human
particularity and enormously varied manifestations
throughout history, would not occur.
For me the point of being a marxist is to begin to
understand precisely how we can begin to move from
"the realm of necessity to the realm of freedom" - so
that all of us have a chance to lead full and rich
lives and to make art, or whatever we will call it
then, too.
However much I reject your religious beliefs I find
what for me is your humanistic approach to art an
extremely sympathetic one - I suppose the big
difference between us is that I think there's noone
and nothing but us humans & I think we'll have to
struggle *here* to make our kingdom of heaven *here*
on earth.
I'm not sure that the content of that kingdom is in
practice that different.
regards
michael
--- curt cloninger <curt@lab404.com> wrote:
> I freely admit the existence and influence of
> hierarchical structures, and the importance of
> accurately understanding their dynamics. My problem
> is taking love and intimacy and thanksgiving and
> creativity and celebration and barbaric yawpin' and
> reducing them to sociological-driven responses to
> these power structures.
>
> sometimes the dolphins just frolic and the lambs
> just leap.
> http://lab404.com/misc/echoed.gif
>
http://designforfreedom.com/substitud/Movies/typevsm_small.html
>
> peace,
> curt
>
> __
>
> Eduardo Navas wrote:
>
> I am glad you dismiss structuralism (rather turning
> into
> > poststructuralism at the time Foucault was writing
> his text) with an
> > understanding of language difference. I really
> appreciate your
> > honesty. I
> > would say, however, that, since many people are
> not religious, trying
> > to
> > understand how we live within the dynamics of
> hierarchies is a
> > necessity. I
> > do not think we should get into a religious
> discussion here however,
> > because
> > you already stated the language difference.
> +
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is
> open to non-members
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at
http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
=====
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http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/Some_QuickTime_Movies
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ ***
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