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hi:

sorry for the slow reply--i just got back from a few days offline. as
rachel suggested, i didn't write that e-card.

i agree with tim's response to valery. rhizome.org is first and foremost a
nonprofit organization, but lately i've also started to think of it as a
social sculpture, i.e. as a participatory art work in which speech and
ideas form the raw materials in creating a transformative social space in
which the boundaries between art and other things are blurred. i do think
that this kind of interdisciplinary convergence is one of the chacteristic
features of new media art in general, and net art in particular. etoy
merges art and corporate commerce. rtmark merges art and political
activism. joshua davis merges art and design. 0100101110101101.ORG merges
art and everyday life. several net artists merge art and interface. is it
really so problematic to think of rhizome.org as merging art and online
community?

-m

At 09:15 AM 11/8/2002 -0500, t.whid wrote:
>the two aren't mutually exclusive. rhizome could be both a non-profit org
>and a mark tribe art piece. that's what's said in the statement below:
>
>though it would be a disservice to abstract
>>Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
>>a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
>>many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
>>work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
>>of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
>>media.
>
>rhizome exists in both conceptual spaces. this feature, coexistence in two
>different conceptual realms, is prevalent in some of the more advanced
>contemporary art imo.
>
>what's with the this-or-that demand?
>
>
>>as a contribitor last 2 years I would like to clarify one point to make my
>>decision this year :
>>
>>Rhizome campaign : is it a campaign for a non profit organization? or for
>>mark Tribe artpiece ?
>>Could you mind to make it clear ?
>>I'm asking this regarding your statement on "day jobs" exhbition website at
>>new langton art center in San Francisco .... I'm really surprised by it...
>>(hereafter)
>>
>>I already sent a message to you and I didn't get any answer ... am i right ?
>>could you mind to clarify this point ?
>>
>>hereafter on day jobs exhibitions statement !
>>
>>Mark Tribe
>>Projects
>>
>>Day: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
>>Night: Rhizome.org http://www.rhizome.org
>>Mark Tribe's art work featured in this exhibition can be seen as performance
>>as much as media art. Rhizome.org is an online community that Mark describes
>>as "social sculpture" in the tradition of Bueys. Here, product is not as
>>important as process, though it would be a disservice to abstract
>>Rhizome.org to the level of a conceptual art prank when, in fact, it has had
>>a very real effect on the social lives of many new media artists and offers
>>many practical services. This close-knit integration of a conceptual social
>>work combined, inextricably, with practical real-world services is exemplary
>>of how new media artists are sometimes able to play and work in the same
>>media. Since media is the built environment that we now live in full-time
>>(as opposed to a weekend leisure destination), artists find it possible to
>>move into the "main house" -- sometimes without anyone noticing them sneak
>>in.
>>
>>-- Richard Rinehart"
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mark Tribe" <mt@rhizome.org>
>>To: <list@rhizome.org>
>>Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 6:02 PM
>>Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: Re: Charity CD Project
>>
>>
>>> At 03:40 PM 11/6/2002 -0500, t.whid wrote:
>>> >i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources to
>>> >the project or sell it directly.
>>>
>>> exactly. i really do appreciate the generosity behind this and want to
>>> thank everyone who is interested in volunteering for the project and
>>> helping to raise funds for rhizome. i'm just saying that the best way to
>>do
>>> it is independently.
>>>
>>> >to mark:
>>> >could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will go
>>> >to rhizome?
>>>
>>> you can certainly say that all or some of the proceeds will go to support
>>> rhizome.org, but using the rhizome logo may lead people to believe that
>>> it's a rhizome project. so maybe better not to.
>>>
>>> i'm sorry if my reaction has seemed dismissive. if you want to do
>>something
>>> to support rhizome, great! go for it!
>>>
>>> + be me
>>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
>>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
>>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>> +
>>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>+ be me
>>-> post: list@rhizome.org
>>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
>>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>>+
>>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>--
><twhid>
>http://www.mteww.com
></twhid>
>+ be me
>-> post: list@rhizome.org
>-> questions: info@rhizome.org
>-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
>-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
>+
>Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
>Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php

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At 03:40 PM 11/6/2002 -0500, t.whid wrote:
>i think that mark was saying that rhizome couldn't give any resources to
>the project or sell it directly.

exactly. i really do appreciate the generosity behind this and want to
thank everyone who is interested in volunteering for the project and
helping to raise funds for rhizome. i'm just saying that the best way to do
it is independently.

>to mark:
>could the project use rhizome's logo and state that all proceeds will go
>to rhizome?

you can certainly say that all or some of the proceeds will go to support
rhizome.org, but using the rhizome logo may lead people to believe that
it's a rhizome project. so maybe better not to.

i'm sorry if my reaction has seemed dismissive. if you want to do something
to support rhizome, great! go for it!

At 03:40 AM 11/6/2002 -0800, Michael Szpakowski wrote:
>Mark & list
>I don't think anyone disputes that a fund raiser would
>be anything but token financially.
>I've certainly expressed myself in favour of fees and
>am willing to pay in order to keep Rhizome viable.
>Neither do I think anyone was asking for it to be an
>'official' Rhizome project.
>What it would do is to provided excellent publicity
>for Rhizome's cause and show the
>solidarity of the Rhizome 'community', which might
>just impress potential funders.

good point.

>Unfortunately I think the negative tone of your mail
>will effectivley act as a spoiler in terms of a call
>for work on this list from as wide a range of known
>and unknown artists as would have been possible.

that certainly wasn't my intent.

>I hope I'm wrong -I'd like the thing to happen and if
>people are up for it then they should
>post to that effect.
>I can't help feeling though in this instance that an
>appeal to 'the Rhizome community' was good insofar as
>it obtained an endorsement of fees but that it wasn't
>*really* intended to engender a wide and self starting
>debate or activity from Rhizome members.

i was and is really intended to engender debate. although i hadn't
anticipated this kind of "self-starting activity", as i said in my response
i appreciate the sentiment. but you can't expect me to get behind every idea.

>A pity.
>Michael
>
>--- Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org> wrote:
> > At 03:49 PM 11/5/2002 +0000, leewells@bb19.net
> > wrote:
> > >I agree.
> > >One thing we do need to consider is file size
> > limits.
> > >If we are going to use a cd that doesn't leave us
> > that much
> > >room, I guess we could upgrade to dvd.
> > >
> > >Once the official call of artists is relieced. Who
> > will manage the
> > >submissions? What would be the best way of
> > organizing the content? I was
> > >thinking all submitted content should be housed on
> > individual urls
> > >provided by the artists. Then we would only have to
> > arrange and organize
> > >the links. One submission per artist or group of
> > artists.
> > >
> > >Anyways...I'm at work and have to go.
> > >Let keep it rolling.
> > >
> > >Mark, do you have any thoughts on this. Ways of
> > making this run smoothly.
> >
> > Okay, here are my thoughts on the charity CD idea.
> > First, I really
> > appreciate the sentiment behind it. It's wonderful
> > that you want to support
> > Rhizome.org and are willing to donate your time and
> > art work.
> >
> > That said, I think it will take a lot of work to
> > pull it off. And even if
> > it turns out great, it will be very hard to sell
> > enough copies to earn a
> > significant amount of money. So although it may be
> > worth while as an end in
> > itself, I don't think it makes sense on a strictly
> > financial level as a
> > fundraising tool. That's why I don't want to devote
> > any of our very limited
> > resources to this project. Sorry to be a wet
> > blanket, but it's my job to
> > make these kinds of decisions.
> >
> > Because we are a registered not-for-profit
> > organization, we must follow the
> > US Charities laws, and there are a lot of them that
> > pertain to this kind of
> > thing. As we learned when we got involved in web
> > hosting and online
> > education, you have to be very careful when it comes
> > to earned income. We
> > can't afford to compromise our charitable status. So
> > we'd either have to
> > run the project ourselves (to make sure it complies
> > with all the US
> > Charities laws) or maintain a totally arms-length
> > relationship. Since we
> > don't think it would be a good use of our resources,
> > our only option is to
> > have nothing to do with it.
> >
> > Kinda sucks, but that's the way it is. If you still
> > want to go ahead with,
> > I suggest you handle it as follows:
> >
> > + Set up an independent group to produce/distribute
> > a CD-ROM.
> > + Manage all of your own income and expenses,
> > including any in-kind donations.
> > + Make it clear to all potential supporters of the
> > production and buyers of
> > the CD-ROM that you are the group that is producing
> > the product, and that
> > Rhizome is in no way involved in this production.
> > + Then, if you choose to, you can say that a % of
> > the proceeds will be
> > donated to Rhizome.org and you (the group) can make
> > a donation to Rhizome,
> > and whoever the donation comes from will get the tax
> > credit.
> >
> > This is the cleanest way to do it. You have control
> > of what you want to do,
> > we don't have to expend our scant resources
> > overseeing it, and we also
> > don't risk endangering our charitable status.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Mark