ARTBASE (1)
PORTFOLIO (3)
BIO
Marc Garrett is co-director and co-founder, with artist Ruth Catlow of the Internet arts collectives and communities – Furtherfield.org, Furthernoise.org, Netbehaviour.org, also co-founder and co-curator/director of the gallery space formerly known as 'HTTP Gallery' now called the Furtherfield Gallery in London (Finsbury Park), UK. Co-curating various contemporary Media Arts exhibitions, projects nationally and internationally. Co-editor of 'Artists Re:Thinking Games' with Ruth Catlow and Corrado Morgana 2010. Hosted Furtherfield's critically acclaimed weekly broadcast on UK's Resonance FM Radio, a series of hour long live interviews with people working at the edge of contemporary practices in art, technology & social change. Currently doing an Art history Phd at the University of London, Birkbeck College.
Net artist, media artist, curator, writer, street artist, activist, educationalist and musician. Emerging in the late 80′s from the streets exploring creativity via agit-art tactics. Using unofficial, experimental platforms such as the streets, pirate radio such as the locally popular ‘Savage Yet Tender’ alternative broadcasting 1980′s group, net broadcasts, BBS systems, performance, intervention, events, pamphlets, warehouses and gallery spaces. In the early nineties, was co-sysop (systems operator) with Heath Bunting on Cybercafe BBS with Irational.org.
Our mission is to co-create extraordinary art that connects with contemporary audiences providing innovative, engaging and inclusive digital and physical spaces for appreciating and participating in practices in art, technology and social change. As well as finding alternative ways around already dominating hegemonies, thus claiming for ourselves and our peer networks a culturally aware and critical dialogue beyond traditional hierarchical behaviours. Influenced by situationist theory, fluxus, free and open source culture, and processes of self-education and peer learning, in an art, activist and community context.
Net artist, media artist, curator, writer, street artist, activist, educationalist and musician. Emerging in the late 80′s from the streets exploring creativity via agit-art tactics. Using unofficial, experimental platforms such as the streets, pirate radio such as the locally popular ‘Savage Yet Tender’ alternative broadcasting 1980′s group, net broadcasts, BBS systems, performance, intervention, events, pamphlets, warehouses and gallery spaces. In the early nineties, was co-sysop (systems operator) with Heath Bunting on Cybercafe BBS with Irational.org.
Our mission is to co-create extraordinary art that connects with contemporary audiences providing innovative, engaging and inclusive digital and physical spaces for appreciating and participating in practices in art, technology and social change. As well as finding alternative ways around already dominating hegemonies, thus claiming for ourselves and our peer networks a culturally aware and critical dialogue beyond traditional hierarchical behaviours. Influenced by situationist theory, fluxus, free and open source culture, and processes of self-education and peer learning, in an art, activist and community context.
Re: PussyWally of Please
Yeah, I know what you mean, this Wally guy seem a bit simple. He's not
taking responsibility for his own ignorance & lack of compassion for other
people's lives...he might as well be Bush if he is taking that backward
line.
It's about Money, Power, Oil, Blokes making a windfall - christ! This world
is plummeting into a one dimensional level...duh!
marc
> Please,
>
> take responsibilty
>
> for the tens
>
> of thousands
>
> of deaths
>
> yet to come.
>
> The pressure
>
> should be
>
> properly placed
>
> on the long-term
>
> aftermath
>
> of the destruction.
>
> Dictatorshit more!!!!
>
> Lives would be saved
>
> first by annihilating
>
> hundreds of thousands of people.
>
> Miserable deaths
>
> For those peace activists
>
> who oppose regime.
>
> You could read
>
> your knee-jerk idiocy,
>
> proud Wally
>
> pussy Wally
>
> sad Wally
>
> of all my days.
>
>
> \|////
> - - ///
> ( @ @ )
> +The Fourth World---------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-----War Has Beginned+
> |Make Love! Fuck Motion Pictures Association of America! |
> |Internet: a war machine escaped from the army's control |
> +www.wearehope.com--------------Oooo------phidyas@yahoo.com+
> oooO ( )
> ( ) ) /
> ( (_/
> \_}
>
> + the Patty Winters show this morning was about Real-Life Rambos.
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
taking responsibility for his own ignorance & lack of compassion for other
people's lives...he might as well be Bush if he is taking that backward
line.
It's about Money, Power, Oil, Blokes making a windfall - christ! This world
is plummeting into a one dimensional level...duh!
marc
> Please,
>
> take responsibilty
>
> for the tens
>
> of thousands
>
> of deaths
>
> yet to come.
>
> The pressure
>
> should be
>
> properly placed
>
> on the long-term
>
> aftermath
>
> of the destruction.
>
> Dictatorshit more!!!!
>
> Lives would be saved
>
> first by annihilating
>
> hundreds of thousands of people.
>
> Miserable deaths
>
> For those peace activists
>
> who oppose regime.
>
> You could read
>
> your knee-jerk idiocy,
>
> proud Wally
>
> pussy Wally
>
> sad Wally
>
> of all my days.
>
>
> \|////
> - - ///
> ( @ @ )
> +The Fourth World---------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-----War Has Beginned+
> |Make Love! Fuck Motion Pictures Association of America! |
> |Internet: a war machine escaped from the army's control |
> +www.wearehope.com--------------Oooo------phidyas@yahoo.com+
> oooO ( )
> ( ) ) /
> ( (_/
> \_}
>
> + the Patty Winters show this morning was about Real-Life Rambos.
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
Re: Ten Million Hits
Max - are you assuming that I am asleep?
marc
>
>
> Socrates said he was a gadfly trying to wake up the sleeping polis.
>
>
> >From: "Joseph Franklyn McElroy Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]"
> ><joseph@electrichands.com>
> >Reply-To: "Joseph Franklyn McElroy Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]"
> ><joseph@electrichands.com>
> >To: furtherfield <info@furtherfield.org>, "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+"
> ><death@zaphod.terminal.org>
> >CC: list@rhizome.org, Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
> >Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Ten Million Hits
> >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:55:44 -0400
> >
> >Quoting furtherfield <info@furtherfield.org>:
> >
> > > WELCOME TO THE 'OLD BOYS CLUB 'OF RHIZOME
> > > WHERE IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS A SUBJECT -
> > > YOU ARE PERSONALLY ABUSED AND TREATED
> > > BADLY BY THOSE WHO NOT CREATE THEIR
> > > WORK. A Big THANX TO THE RHIZOME TEAM
> > > FOR STANDING UP FOR ONE WANKER, SO THE
> > > MANY HAVE TO SUFFER....THINGS NEED TO
> > > CHANGE - NOW!
> > >
> > > MARC GARRETT - FEDUP WITH RHIZOME'S
> > > BLOKE GAMES...
> >
> >Mark, I sense that he is not out to abuse people for his jollies. And if
> >you
> >stand back, you can see that he uses essentially the same non-flattering
> >terms
> >for everyone; and as such, that he is not making personal attacks. Just
> >extremely blunt criticism within a pretty specific domain of language,
> >consciousness, awareness, and social structure. I would not be in favor
of
> >censoring him. However, perhaps there should be a starter pack for every
> >Rhizomer that helps take the sting away.
> >
> >Anyway, that is my take on it, but I am just a farmer monkey who can
barely
> >read or write, so what do I know? :)
> >
> >--
> >Joseph Franklyn McElroy
> >Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]T
> >Take the survey they are all talking about...
> >http://www.electrichands.com/genius2000
> >Electric Hands, Inc
> >212.255.4527
> >www.electrichands.com
> >joseph@electrichands.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >+ the Patty Winters show this morning was about Real-Life Rambos.
> >-> post: list@rhizome.org
> >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >+
> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> + the Patty Winters show this morning was about Real-Life Rambos.
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
marc
>
>
> Socrates said he was a gadfly trying to wake up the sleeping polis.
>
>
> >From: "Joseph Franklyn McElroy Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]"
> ><joseph@electrichands.com>
> >Reply-To: "Joseph Franklyn McElroy Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]"
> ><joseph@electrichands.com>
> >To: furtherfield <info@furtherfield.org>, "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+"
> ><death@zaphod.terminal.org>
> >CC: list@rhizome.org, Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
> >Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Ten Million Hits
> >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:55:44 -0400
> >
> >Quoting furtherfield <info@furtherfield.org>:
> >
> > > WELCOME TO THE 'OLD BOYS CLUB 'OF RHIZOME
> > > WHERE IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS A SUBJECT -
> > > YOU ARE PERSONALLY ABUSED AND TREATED
> > > BADLY BY THOSE WHO NOT CREATE THEIR
> > > WORK. A Big THANX TO THE RHIZOME TEAM
> > > FOR STANDING UP FOR ONE WANKER, SO THE
> > > MANY HAVE TO SUFFER....THINGS NEED TO
> > > CHANGE - NOW!
> > >
> > > MARC GARRETT - FEDUP WITH RHIZOME'S
> > > BLOKE GAMES...
> >
> >Mark, I sense that he is not out to abuse people for his jollies. And if
> >you
> >stand back, you can see that he uses essentially the same non-flattering
> >terms
> >for everyone; and as such, that he is not making personal attacks. Just
> >extremely blunt criticism within a pretty specific domain of language,
> >consciousness, awareness, and social structure. I would not be in favor
of
> >censoring him. However, perhaps there should be a starter pack for every
> >Rhizomer that helps take the sting away.
> >
> >Anyway, that is my take on it, but I am just a farmer monkey who can
barely
> >read or write, so what do I know? :)
> >
> >--
> >Joseph Franklyn McElroy
> >Cor[porat]e [Per]form[ance] Art[ist]T
> >Take the survey they are all talking about...
> >http://www.electrichands.com/genius2000
> >Electric Hands, Inc
> >212.255.4527
> >www.electrichands.com
> >joseph@electrichands.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >+ the Patty Winters show this morning was about Real-Life Rambos.
> >-> post: list@rhizome.org
> >-> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >-> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >-> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >+
> >Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> + the Patty Winters show this morning was about Real-Life Rambos.
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
Re: Ten Million Hits
Not at the moment - teach me daddy bot..
marc
> On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, furtherfield wrote:
>
> > you sound like some little boy...
>
> Not even remotely. Got any more self-debasing masochistic
> pseudo-anarchist poses?
>
> `, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42
>
>
marc
> On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, furtherfield wrote:
>
> > you sound like some little boy...
>
> Not even remotely. Got any more self-debasing masochistic
> pseudo-anarchist poses?
>
> `, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42
>
>
Re: PussyFoots of Peace
I didn't know discourse was allowed any more in the states - but I am
reassured by your need for it.
marc
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "furtherfield" <info@furtherfield.org>
> > Scary!
> >
> > Wally - er, are you an artist or an FBI fag,
>
> What an incredibly stupid remark. Is that what you call discourse,
> arguement, dialogue? I've published and exhibited, so what does that make
> me?
>
> > I cannot believe what you are
> > saying.
>
> Perhaps that is because you have your head stuck somewhere and are
incapable
> of reading AND comprehending. I happen to regard Thomas von der
> Osten-Sacken"s caveats seriously. He has been there. He is a humanitarian.
> Similar to George Orwell, he is a leftist critical of leftists.
>
> > It's like the age of enlightenment never happened. Not in your neck
> > of the woods, anyway...
>
> Obviously, you are unable to see that hand-wringing tut-tut is a cause of
> much death. Read the article and tell me that the deaths in Iraq did not
> happen. Tell me that those deaths could not have been preventable. Or
> perhaps you are a Saddam sucker, and you haven't a single clue about how
to
> make Iraq safe for the Iraqi people or perhaps you couldn;t care less
about
> THOSE people.
>
> > > For those peace activists who advocated Big Bush refrain from marching
> on
> > to
> > > Baghdad as part of Desert Storm, bear responsibility for the miserable
> > > deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. For those peace activists
who
> > > oppose regime change in Baghdad, please take responsibilty for the
tens
> of
> > > thousands of deaths yet to come at the hands of the Saddam Baathist
> > > dictatorshit. More lives would be saved if the pressure was placed on
> the
> > > establishment of democracy in Iraq -- established first by
annihilating
> > the
> > > Baathist regime. The pressure should be properly placed on the
long-term
> > > aftermath of the destruction of the Baathists.
> > >
> > >
> > > ========================================
> > >
> > > Thursday, October 10, 2002 Cheshvan 4, 5763 Israel Time: 01:32
> > > (GMT+3)
> > >
> > > Interview / Vicious circles closing in
> > > By Micha Odenheimer
> > >
> > > Thomas von der Osten-Sacken: "The most regressive and
> dangerous
> > > elements in the Arab and Islamic world depend on Saddam Hussein."
> > >
> > > A journalist, human rights activist and intellectual, Thomas von
> der
> > > Osten-Sacken is considered one of Germany's leading authorities on
human
> > > rights in Iraq. He began traveling to Iraq in 1991, when he spent
eight
> > > months doing humanitarian work in the southern part of the country
just
> > > after Saddam Hussein crushed the Shi'ite uprising there. In 1992, Von
> der
> > > Osten-Sacken co-founded an aid and advocacy organization called Wadi,
> > > operating in Iraqi Kurdistan - the semi-autonomous safe haven carved
out
> > for
> > > Kurdish refugees after the Gulf War - and on behalf of Iraqi refugees
in
> > > Germany. He spends part of each year in Kurdistan where Wadi has
founded
> > the
> > > first shelter there for women in distress and is also involved in
> helping
> > > the local government reform the prison system that has been left over
> from
> > > Iraqi rule. In Germany, Wadi advises Iraqi opposition groups and works
> > > closely with the Coalition for a Democratic Iraq.
> > >
> > > Von der Osten-Sacken, 34, publishes articles in German magazines
> > such
> > > as Jungle World and Konkret, and has co-edited a book on Iraq called
> > > "Saddam's Last Battle?", which is due to be published next month. He
is
> > one
> > > of the relatively few contemporary German writers and thinkers on the
> left
> > > who consider themselves pro-Israel and have developed a left-wing
> critique
> > > of the anti-globalization left in today's Europe. Along with his other
> > > activities, he is conducting research for his doctoral thesis on
> > > German-language Zionist newspapers in the 1930s for the German
> literature
> > > department at the University of Frankfurt.
> > >
> > > This interview was conducted with him earlier this week.
> > > ======================================================
> > >
> > > When did you first realize that the Iraqi regime was not just
> > another
> > > Middle East dictatorship?
> > >
> > > Von der Osten-Sacken: "When I first came to Iraq, I very quickly
> > > realized that I could not compare the situation there to other Middle
> > > Eastern countries I had been in, like Syria, Jordan or Egypt. This
> country
> > > was hell. We were the only Europeans in a city called Amara in the
> Shi'ite
> > > area of southern Iraq near Basra, and we arrived just a few weeks
after
> > the
> > > uprising had been crushed. There was a belt of tanks around the city.
> The
> > > majority of buildings were burned out. There was no food in the
market.
> > > There was also a terrible degree of malnourishment there.
> > >
> > > "People in Iraq won't talk freely, because they are terrified
that
> > > their friends are working for one of Saddam's nine horrible security
> > > services. Because of this atmosphere, it took us three or four months
to
> > > learn some details about the uprising. The Iraqis made people lie down
> in
> > > the streets and then buried them alive under asphalt. They killed
> everyone
> > > who looked a little religious, because this was a Shi'ite area. It was
> > > forbidden to take the corpses from the street. All in all, 60,000 or
> > 70,000
> > > people were killed in this area in 1991.
> > >
> > > "The first thing that was done after the uprising was crushed
was
> to
> > > repaint the pictures of Saddam Hussein. People had riddled them with
> > > bullets. Not one had been left. We were shocked at how neglected the
> south
> > > was, with open sewage systems, even though it is rich in oil. Saddam
> said
> > > before smashing the uprising that these Shi'ites were dirty people,
not
> > > really Iraqis. We left there in October '91 when we felt we could not
> > > continue our work without unintentionally helping the government."
> > >
> > > What was the atmosphere like in Baghdad then?
> > >
> > > "Baghdad was 300 kilometers away, and we went quite often - for
a
> > good
> > > dinner, to have a meeting with another organization or even to make a
> > phone
> > > call to Germany. The fear in Iraq, a BBC reporter said recently, is so
> > > palpable you can eat it. It's really indescribable. Syria is a
> > dictatorship,
> > > but the fear and control in Iraq reaches into your living room. If
there
> > is
> > > no picture of Saddam Hussein in your living room, you might be
arrested.
> > > There is no privacy. The Iraqi government considers everything
> political.
> > In
> > > Syria, as long as you are not a member of the opposition, you can
relax.
> > You
> > > know you will not be harmed. But in Iraq, if you are in the wrong
place
> at
> > > the wrong time, you may be arrested, tortured, killed."
> > >
> > > "When I was in southern Iraq in '91, we had a lot of
conversations
> > > with a very nice, very sophisticated doctor. One day, he was watching
> > > television and the Iraqi army was being praised for having won the
> second
> > > part of the Gulf War [after the initial U.S. attack aimed at driving
> Iraq
> > > out of Kuwait]. The doctor just said, `Well, it is a strange victory
if
> > > daily children are dying of hunger.' That was enough. Someone heard
him.
> > He
> > > was taken, tortured for three weeks and brought back a broken person.
> > > Letting one sentence slip is cause enough for a person to vanish into
an
> > > Iraqi prison or even to be killed."
> > >
> > > You have said that estimates are that Saddam has killed
> > approximately
> > > one million of his own citizens since 1979.
> > >
> > > "Yes, that would include Kurds, Shi'ites, Christians and Sunnis.
> > There
> > > were two huge massacres. There was the so-called Anfal campaign
against
> > the
> > > Kurds at the end of the 1980s when 4,000 villages were destroyed, and
> > about
> > > 100,000 to 150,000 persons were killed, some with poison gas. Up to a
> > > million people were sent into internal exile. The other big massacre
was
> > in
> > > the south in the 1990s, where the regime has killed about 300,000
> Shi'ites
> > > in the last 10 years. In addition, there have been enormous massacres
> > > against communists over the past two decades.
> > >
> > > "The estimate of one million killed only includes civilians. A
> > million
> > > Iraqi soldiers were killed in the Iran-Iraq war. A half-million Iraqis
> > died
> > > of hunger or disease because of sanctions on Iraq, and more were
killed
> in
> > > the Gulf War. Some 1.5 to two million people have been internally
> > displaced,
> > > and 4.5 million Iraqi refugees are scattered across the globe. Ten
> percent
> > > of the Iraqi population has been killed or deported during the rule of
> > > Saddam Hussein. That is the essence of his regime. It is not an
> accident.
> > It
> > > is systematic."
> > >
> > > What is the ideology behind Saddam Hussein's regime?
> > >
> > > "The Ba'ath ideology mixes pan-Arabism with admiration of
> Mussolini
> > > and Hitler, some ideas of state socialism and the notion of an Arab
> > > supremacy which will be realized after the Arabs have liberated
> themselves
> > > from foreign - that means mainly Jewish - influence and British and
> > American
> > > imperialism. Ba'athism is strongly anti-communist and
anti-imperialist,
> > and
> > > it is anti- Semitic from its beginning. Everything in Iraq is
explained
> > > through this huge conspiracy theory against the Arabs, in general, and
> > Iraq,
> > > in particular. Iraq is thought to be the greatest Arab nation and the
> > > natural leader of Arab unity."
> > >
> > > So Iraq sees itself as the center of the Arab world?
> > >
> > > "Yes, the leader of Arab unity. Saddam Hussein dreams of ruling
a
> > > united Arab nation that would become a superpower confronting East and
> > West.
> > > Iraqi children are taught in kindergarten that they have to be strong
> Arab
> > > fighters."
> > >
> > > Is Iraqi Ba'athism Islamist?
> > >
> > > "Pan-Arabism has always said that Mohammed is the forefather of
> > > pan-Arabism and that Islam was spoiled when it crossed the borders of
> the
> > > Arab world to Iran and Turkey. The task now is to `re-animate' the
real
> > > Islam that was taught by Mohammed as an Arab ideology. Especially
during
> > the
> > > Iran-Iraq war, when Iraq had to face the Iranian revolution, they
loaded
> > > their own ideology with Islamic content. The Iranians and the
Zionists,
> > they
> > > said, are part of a 2,000-year-old plot to smash Iraq and divide the
> > Arabs.
> > > `We are fighting for the real Islam' the regime said, not the kind of
> > > spoiled Islam that Iran represents. I think it was a mistake for the
> > > Americans to believe, as they did, that Iraq was a stronghold against
> > > Islam."
> > >
> > > Is it conceivable that Al Qaeda and Iraq have cooperated?
> > >
> > > "Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden share the same enemies, the
> same
> > > conspiracy theories. They share the claim that they are fighting in
the
> > name
> > > of the Arab masses. Both these men grew up in the same poisoned
climate
> of
> > > Arab dictatorships. Their ideologies are quite close, even if Saddam
is
> > not
> > > an Islamist. And since he has been supporting many terror
organizations,
> I
> > > would not be surprised if there are close ties on the ground between
> Iraq
> > > and Al Qaeda.
> > >
> > > "I think that Osama bin Laden is trying to walk in the footsteps
> of
> > > Saddam Hussein. At the same time, Saddam Hussein in the 1990s was
trying
> > to
> > > strengthen the ties between Iraq and the Islamic movements. He put
> `Allah
> > > Akhbar' [`God is great'] into the flag of Iraq and also financed
> different
> > > Islamic groups in Palestine and other places in the Arab world. There
is
> a
> > > terrorist education center in Baghdad called Salmanpak and according
to
> > the
> > > Iraqi opposition, in the mid-'90s, terrorists from other countries
were
> > > being trained there in such skills as how to hijack planes and use
> > chemical
> > > weapons. They may be cooperating and even if they are not, these are
two
> > > trees growing in the same soil."
> > >
> > > So you would not agree with the idea that the war on Iraq is a
> > > distraction from the war against terror that President George Bush has
> > > proclaimed.
> > >
> > > "American policy in Iraq is a series of huge mistakes. Firstly,
it
> > was
> > > a mistake to support that horrible regime in the 1980s knowing, for
> > example,
> > > about the massacres against the Kurds. Secondly, it was a huge mistake
> not
> > > to let the Iraqi people topple Saddam in '91. The Americans feared
> > democracy
> > > in the Middle East, they feared the breakup of Iraq because it would
> > > strengthen Iran, so they allowed Saddam to crush the uprising.
> > >
> > > "With regimes like the Iraqi one, there will be no peace in the
> > Middle
> > > East. You cannot contain a regime like Saddam Hussein's. That was a
> > mistake
> > > of the West. So the question is: Is America ready to face up to the
> > mistakes
> > > it made in '91 and in the '80s? Are the Americans ready to support
> > > democracy? Because people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden grew
> out
> > > of the Middle East. They are not products of Afghanistan."
> > >
> > > What kind of influence does Saddam have in the Arab street, and
> what
> > > kind of affect could it have to topple him?
> > >
> > > "The most regressive and dangerous elements in the Arab and
> Islamic
> > > world depend on Saddam Hussein. Really toppling Saddam Hussein means
> > > uprooting the Ba'ath regime, with the help of the Iraqi people. This
> would
> > > give the final blow to pan-Arabism in the Middle East. Syria and a lot
> of
> > > very radical factions in Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and the Gulf states
> > would
> > > be affected. These factions look up to Saddam Hussein as a
pan-Arabist,
> > > anti-imperialist hero - although he is anti-imperialist in the
tradition
> > of
> > > the Nazis, not the left. Also, Saddam is financing organizations like
> the
> > > Arab Liberation Front in Palestine, which is a Ba'ath organization. He
> is
> > > paying the families of suicide attackers. He is directly and
indirectly
> > > responsible for a lot of terrorism in the Middle East."
> > >
> > > What is his relationship with Yasser Arafat and the PLO?
> > >
> > > "Part of the Palestinian establishment has very close ties to
Iraq
> > > since 1991 when the Palestinians decided to support Saddam, which was
a
> > huge
> > > mistake. This includes some quite influential figures within the
> security
> > > apparatus of Yasser Arafat and the PLO. There is a struggle within the
> > > Palestinian establishment right now over whether these elements should
> be
> > > isolated. I think that certain people like Abu Mazen and some of the
> > > security forces who were trained by the CIA are struggling against
> others
> > > who have very close ties to Baghdad, and who still want to join Iraq
in
> > the
> > > next battle with terrorist attacks, or worse - with chemical or
> biological
> > > attacks on Israel or somewhere else in the world. That, I think, would
> be
> > > another terrible mistake for the Palestinians to make."
> > >
> > > What will have to be done, the day after Saddam is gone, to make
> the
> > > distinction between merely switching Iraqi regimes and starting
> something
> > > completely new and democratic?
> > >
> > > "In 1991, the Americans feared the results of a public uprising.
> > They
> > > hoped to find someone within the military who could topple Saddam
> Hussein
> > > and rule Iraq with some cosmetic changes, but with the same security
> > > apparatus. This hope proved a failure because for 25 years, Saddam has
> > been
> > > trying to get rid of anyone that might pose a threat to him. Every
> > > influential general has been killed. Yearly cleansing campaigns are
> > carried
> > > out against high-ranking members of the Ba'ath Party so that no one
can
> > > threaten the position of his family, which is more or less ruling
Iraq.
> > The
> > > hawks in the U.S., people like Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney or Richard
> > > Perle, analyzed the situation and realized that they cannot just
change
> > > someone at the top. It is not like a South American dictatorship. If
> they
> > > really want change, they have to create a new Iraq.
> > >
> > > "Iraq is so ruthless and cruel against any opposition that
people
> > > cannot rise up without an outside trigger. But the moment a
possibility
> is
> > > created, the vast majority of the Iraqi people will rise up. They will
> > > uproot the Ba'ath Party and even take personal revenge on the ruling
> > regime;
> > > you won't have any Ba'ath Party anymore. So you really have to think
> about
> > > what to do afterward. The only alternative is creating a democracy,
> which
> > is
> > > a real experiment because nothing like this exists in the region. Iraq
> > > considers itself an Arab country, but actually contains nearly all the
> > > different minority and ethnic groups of the Middle East.
> > >
> > > "So, if it is really done with heart, it is the first step to
> > creating
> > > a new Middle East. A democracy in the region will very much affect
other
> > > countries. It is a huge challenge and experiment. The question is: Do
> the
> > > Americans know what they are going to do there? Because Turkey, Iran
and
> > > Europe will all try to impose their own policy. Iraq is an oil-rich
> > country
> > > and you don't know if this great game will not lead to catastrophe."
> > >
> > > Does Iraq have a national identity that could come together as a
> > > democracy? Or are these fears that the Shi'ites and Kurds will split
off
> > > legitimate?
> > >
> > > "Iraq is very unique in the Arab world. First of all, you
already
> > have
> > > a very long tradition of opposition to the central regime. And you
have
> a
> > > tradition of a national identity. Even the Kurds in Iraq never wanted
to
> > > split off, unlike their brethren in Turkey. They want a federal Iraq
> with
> > > strong Kurdish autonomy. I don't think the Shi'ites want to split off.
> > > Usually the minority is the one that wants to split off. The Shi'ite
are
> > the
> > > majority in Iraq. What they want is more influence in Baghdad. From my
> > > experience from living there, I don't think the Shi'ites are attracted
> by
> > > the mullah regime of Iran. You also have a strong leftist tradition,
> > mainly
> > > in places like Basra and Amara, and Iraq has one of the oldest and
> > strongest
> > > communist parties in the Middle East. This tradition has been strongly
> > > repressed by the Ba'ath Party, but it still exists.
> > >
> > > "I think the Kurdish autonomy is a positive example for Iraq.
> > > Kurdistan has horrible conditions. It's not recognized
internationally.
> It
> > > is more or less under double embargo: the international sanctions
> against
> > > Iraq and some internal sanctions from the central government. Turkey,
> Iran
> > > and Syria are all trying to destabilize the Kurds. But even under
these
> > dire
> > > circumstances, the Kurds have been able to build up what is not really
a
> > > democracy, but a place which is, except for Israel, the most liberal
and
> > > free in the Middle East. There are a lot of newspapers, freedom of
> speech,
> > > up to a limit - you are not allowed to insult the Kurdish political
> > > leaders - but in comparison with central Iraq, you can really call it
> > > paradise. And there is to a certain extent democracy. If the Kurds are
> > able
> > > to do it, why shouldn't the Iraqis, with assistance from abroad?"
> > >
> > > Are you in favor of waging war against Iraq?
> > >
> > > "Let me say first that I am not in favor of war, especially
until
> we
> > > know how the Americans want to conduct the war. But one also has to
> > consider
> > > that what the Lebanese intellectual Fouad Ajami has said: that for 30
> > years,
> > > Iraq has been conducting a war against its own society. Saddam Hussein
> is
> > > conducting a war against his own people and it must be stopped. It is
> hard
> > > to think of another people who have suffered in the last 20 years like
> the
> > > Iraqi people have suffered at the hands of Saddam Hussein and because
of
> > > international policy aimed at containing him. If Americans are really
> > ready
> > > to topple him, it might be very good for the Iraqi people and very
good
> > for
> > > the region. If the Americans start just another stupid war like the
one
> in
> > > 1991, then I am against it, too.
> > >
> > > "At this very moment there is a huge Arabization campaign
against
> > > Kurds living in Karkuk. People are systematically deported because the
> > > regime wants to change a Kurdish city into an Arab one. Just now there
> are
> > > tremendous prison cleansing campaigns. Every Wednesday, the security
> > forces
> > > come into the largest prison in Baghdad and say: You, you, you and
you.
> > Five
> > > hundred people are taken out to be killed just because the prisons are
> > > overcrowded. The Iraqi National Congress says that there are 600,000
to
> > > 700,000 political prisoners in Iraqi detention camps at present.
> > >
> > > "So the question is: Are they really ready to support democracy
in
> > the
> > > Middle East? In that case, I think the war is necessary and good. Or
do
> > they
> > > just want to put some horrible general in instead of Saddam? Then I
> oppose
> > > this war very much."
> > >
> > > During the Gulf War in 1991, Israel refrained from retaliating
> after
> > > the Scud missile attacks. How should Israel respond if it is attacked
> this
> > > time?
> > >
> > > "Seventy percent of the Iraqi people are allies of the
Americans.
> If
> > > the war is waged correctly, it will focus on the regime, on the
leaders,
> > on
> > > the security apparatus and on this horrible Ba'ath Party, but not on
the
> > > Iraqi people. So if Israel is attacked, it should consider this point:
> > This
> > > is a war against the regime, and the Iraqi people are allies in
fighting
> > > Saddam Hussein. So it is very important to refrain from attacking
> > civilians.
> > > There has been a debate about Israel nuking Iraq if attacked with
> weapons
> > of
> > > mass destruction. That would be a disaster - the end of the
> > democratization
> > > of the Middle East. Everyone would be against the Iraqi opposition and
> > > against Israel. If there is a need for Israel to strike back, it
should
> > only
> > > be against military targets. Israel should openly declare that it is
not
> > > conducting a war against the Iraqi people, and that it is ready to
> support
> > a
> > > multi-ethnic democracy in Iraq, friendly to the Iraqi people and only
> > > hostile to this government."
> > >
> > > What is the attitude toward Israel and the United States in
> > liberated
> > > Kurdistan?
> > >
> > > "The United States created the safe haven in 1991 not for the
> Kurds,
> > > but to protect Iran and Turkey from the influx of refugees. Still,
> people
> > > know that they are protected by the U.S. and they have a positive
> attitude
> > > toward it. I spent September 11, 2001 in Kurdistan in front of the
> > > television and the next day, I crossed through Syria to Jordan. In
> Syria,
> > > people told me that it was a conspiracy against the Arabs, but in
> > Kurdistan,
> > > people were deeply shocked and sorry for the victims of the World
Trade
> > > Center attack.
> > >
> > > "In regard to Israel, it's astonishing: The Kurds were all
taught
> in
> > > Iraqi schools that the Jews and Israel are the main enemy,
> blood-suckers,
> > > part of a huge conspiracy, but I did not find any real anti-Israel
> > > sentiments. Critics of the occupation, of the settlements, yes, there
> are
> > > some, and I think that is legitimate, but no anti-Semitic conspiracy
> > theory.
> > > In fact, people in Kurdistan are now starting to reflect on the mass
> > > immigration of Kurdish Jews in the 1950s when 99 percent of the Jewish
> > > community left mostly to Israel. Many times, I heard Kurds saying that
> it
> > > was sad that this living together with Jews had stopped, and that the
> > Jewish
> > > heritage of Kurdistan should be kept alive.
> > >
> > > "Also, you have to understand the dynamic. Nearly every week,
> Saddam
> > > Hussein or a leading Ba'ath member declares that Iraqi Kurdistan is
the
> > > Israel of Iraq, or accuses the Kurds of being Zionists agents. The
same
> > > thing is said about every opposition party - be they Islamists,
> > > nationalists, communists or Christians. People who are anti-Zionist
> > > themselves, such as Iraqi communists, are put into prison, tortured
and
> > > killed as Zionist spies. That forces people to have a different
attitude
> > > toward the whole Middle East conspiracy theory. I think this is why
> > > intellectual Iraqis abroad are much less likely to be anti-Israel than
> > other
> > > Arab intellectuals. Iraqis oppose pan-Arabism and Ba'athism much more
> than
> > > they oppose Israel. So, it may be more possible to find a way to work
> with
> > a
> > > future Iraqi government than with any other government in the region.
If
> > the
> > > Kurds are strong in Baghdad, the Jews will not face this irrational
> > > anti-Jewish sentiment."
> > >
> > > What do you think drives German policy against U.S. intervention
> in
> > > Iraq?
> > >
> > > "Germany gains very good material benefit from Iraq. One should
> not
> > > forget that German technology enabled Iraq to enlarge the range of the
> > Scud
> > > missiles so that they could reach Israel, that without German
> assistance,
> > > Iraq would not have been able to gas Iranian soldiers or its own
people
> in
> > > Kurdistan or to threaten Israel. So there are deep relations. Iran,
> Libya
> > > and Syria, but especially Iraq, have this relationship with Germany.
> > German
> > > policy has always put its eggs in Saddam's basket and gained from
trade
> > with
> > > Iraq, especially after '91 when America and England were out of Iraq.
> > >
> > > "Also, ideology is important, especially at such times as during
> the
> > > last election campaign when the Social Democrats start to play on the
> > > anti-American piano. There are very close ties between a certain
German
> > > ideology dating back to the 19th century, running through World War I
> and
> > > escalating in World War II with the Nazis and continuing afterward,
> which
> > > has close ties to pan-Arabism. One that shares the same enemies:
> America,
> > > the Jews, Israel. Anti-American and anti-Israel resentments are very
> > strong
> > > in Germany and they have become stronger since 1989.
> > >
> > > "Saddam Hussein is not usually seen in Germany as a horrible
> > dictator
> > > murdering his own people. People blame the sanctions and not him, and
> > people
> > > blame the Israeli occupation for the whole situation in the Middle
East,
> > not
> > > Palestinian terrorists or Saddam for continually destabilizing the
> region.
> > > Also, since 1945, many Germans have very strong anti-war feelings,
> > > especially if these wars are conducted by the United States. The
> majority
> > of
> > > people opposed the second part of the Gulf War; there were tremendous
> > > demonstrations against it. Now this opposition is stronger, because
> > Germany
> > > is stronger.
> > >
> > > "Germany is now conducting its own independent foreign policy,
> which
> > > in the last two to four years, has become simply to contrast itself to
> the
> > > U.S. If the U.S. is supporting a government, we should support the
> > > opposition to this government. In the Middle East, there is an attempt
> to
> > > tighten relations with Syria, Lebanon, the Palestinians and Iraq.
Also,
> > the
> > > Germans are quite afraid of the archives in Baghdad and what they tell
> > about
> > > the poison gas and other weapons deals that were made between Iraq and
a
> > lot
> > > of German enterprises."
> > >
> > > So both the left and the right in Germany have strong
> anti-American
> > > feeling?
> > >
> > > "Anti-American and anti-Israeli-anti-Semitic. At the moment, you
> can
> > > hardly distinguish between the very far right wing and the very far
left
> > > wing. The far right openly supports Saddam Hussein, saying that he is
> > > fighting the Jews and the Americans and thus supporting the German
> battle.
> > > And certain left-wingers from an orthodox left-wing tradition think
that
> > > Saddam Hussein is anti-imperialist, anti-globalization, that he is
> > fighting
> > > for the rights of the Arabs to self-determination. Others on the left
> say
> > > that Saddam may be horrible, but another American war will not solve
any
> > > problems. The war will just help Israel's interest, so we should
oppose
> > it.
> > > This is also the governmental policy at the moment."
> > >
> > > The European and Third World left have developed an ideology
that
> > > unites anti-globalization, anti-Americanism, anti-Israel feeling and,
to
> a
> > > certain extent, anti-Semitism. What is the internal logic behind this
> > > combination?
> > >
> > > "This is not a very new phenomenon. In the German left, these
> > > attitudes existed during the 1920s with the idea of `a shortened
> > > anti-capitalism' that distinguished very sharply between financial
> capital
> > > and productive capital, and demonized financial capital. This idea was
> > later
> > > adapted by the Nazis, and is in itself anti-Semitic because Jews are
> > > identified with the circulation sphere - with banks. Whoever does not
> > > criticize capitalism in a Marxist way, but criticizes only the surface
> > > [aspects] of capitalism - the huge banks or the monopoly capitalists -
> is
> > > automatically using an anti-Semitic phraseology, even if he is not
> > speaking
> > > about Jews or Israel. This is what some of the anti-globalization
> rhetoric
> > > is about.
> > >
> > > "These associations are so deeply written inside European and
> > > especially German history, that you can be anti-Semitic without even
> > > mentioning Jews. This way of thinking was kept alive in certain
Leninist
> > > groups and in the far right wing in the '60s and '70s, and now it is
> more
> > or
> > > less unfolding in the mainstream movements. It is always a question of
> > > whether these resentments, which are quite common, are taboo or
whether
> > the
> > > government is signaling that they can be voiced. Until 1989,
> anti-Semitism
> > > and anti-Americanism were taboo in Germany. These views found space on
> the
> > > left and on the far right. In the middle of society, they were hidden
in
> > the
> > > signals and phrases communicated in the subtext. Now, due to the new
> > > international constellation, the taboo has broken down and these ideas
> can
> > > be found in the mainstream.
> > >
> > > "So you have more or less the same idea that you had since the
> '20s:
> > > There is a global struggle pitting the `good' people who are fighting
> > > against colonialization against a conspiracy between the huge American
> > > trusts, banks and the Jews, which wants to force the world to adapt a
> > > universal capitalism. The Jews were also accused then of being the
> > purveyors
> > > of the global communist principle, but since 1989, that has been
> > forgotten.
> > > These old ideas were re-animated now due to the ethnic conflicts in
the
> > > Balkans and the conflict in the Middle East, and especially since
> > September
> > > 11, when the focus has been on the conflict between the Palestinians
and
> > > Israel, and the conflict between Iraq on one side and the U.S. and
> Britain
> > > on the other."
> > >
> > > Leaving aside the overt anti-Semitism, what do you, as a
Marxist,
> > see
> > > as the primary mistake of this ideology that is attacking the U.S. as
> the
> > > purveyor of global capitalism?
> > >
> > > "The moment this anti-globalization ideology brings together
> Hamas,
> > > Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, nationalistic movements in the
Balkans,
> > the
> > > Zapatists in Mexico, and the neo-Nazi right wing, which is very active
> in
> > > the anti-globalization movement, it means they are not fighting for
> > > universal freedom, liberation and emancipation, but are reproducing
> > > anti-universalist, anti-Semitic stereotypes that are only leading to
> > > barbarism. Rosa Luxemburg once said that the question is socialism or
> > > barbarism, and that question is still valid. But at the moment, I
think
> > the
> > > fight is to defend the Western world against those who would like to
be
> > its
> > > successors. These people are also, dialectically, the products of the
> > > Western, capitalistic world. Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden grew
out
> > of
> > > the bad politics of the U.S. and Europe in the Middle East. They
didn't
> > fall
> > > from the moon.
> > >
> > > "But at the moment, I think one has to support the West, which
> means
> > > in this case America, Britain and Israel, in its battle against its
own
> > > creations. Then you can think again of how to create a much better
> world.
> > > The questions the anti-globalization movement raises are very
> important -
> > > issues like the environment, world hunger and the enrichment of a very
> > small
> > > minority of people while the vast majority become poorer. But with the
> > > Ba'ath Party and Hamas as your actors, you will not change anything.
> They
> > > are not the historical subjects who are carrying the idea of
> emancipation.
> > >
> > > "In extremis, you have a constellation that reminds one of the
> '30s.
> > > On the one hand, you have Britain, the U.S. and Israel - the Jews are
> > always
> > > in the metaphysical center of these conflicts. This side is fighting
for
> a
> > > capitalistic Western ideology. Then you have these National Socialist,
> > > self-determination ideas, which are always led by the Germans. In
1939,
> > the
> > > Germans said that they were fighting universal capitalism and for
> > > self-determination in the Third World. They had a very
anti-colonialist
> > > phraseology. You can find the same words and the same phrases as are
> being
> > > used today in the '40s when the Germans were supporting India's and
the
> > > Arabs' revolt against the British. Even France is again in the same
> > > position - supporting Britain and the U.S. half-heartedly.
> > >
> > > "Ten years ago, everyone thought Germany was a close ally of the
> > U.S.,
> > > supporting its policy. But no. In this conflict, Germany is signaling
> that
> > > it is standing on the other side. Everywhere in the Middle East, in
the
> > > Syrian press, in the Hezbollah press, in the Baghdadi press, Germany
is
> > > being praised for taking the same side they did 50 years ago. So
people
> > > understand what the Germans are doing. And I think that that is quite
> > > interesting - and quite horrifying."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
reassured by your need for it.
marc
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "furtherfield" <info@furtherfield.org>
> > Scary!
> >
> > Wally - er, are you an artist or an FBI fag,
>
> What an incredibly stupid remark. Is that what you call discourse,
> arguement, dialogue? I've published and exhibited, so what does that make
> me?
>
> > I cannot believe what you are
> > saying.
>
> Perhaps that is because you have your head stuck somewhere and are
incapable
> of reading AND comprehending. I happen to regard Thomas von der
> Osten-Sacken"s caveats seriously. He has been there. He is a humanitarian.
> Similar to George Orwell, he is a leftist critical of leftists.
>
> > It's like the age of enlightenment never happened. Not in your neck
> > of the woods, anyway...
>
> Obviously, you are unable to see that hand-wringing tut-tut is a cause of
> much death. Read the article and tell me that the deaths in Iraq did not
> happen. Tell me that those deaths could not have been preventable. Or
> perhaps you are a Saddam sucker, and you haven't a single clue about how
to
> make Iraq safe for the Iraqi people or perhaps you couldn;t care less
about
> THOSE people.
>
> > > For those peace activists who advocated Big Bush refrain from marching
> on
> > to
> > > Baghdad as part of Desert Storm, bear responsibility for the miserable
> > > deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. For those peace activists
who
> > > oppose regime change in Baghdad, please take responsibilty for the
tens
> of
> > > thousands of deaths yet to come at the hands of the Saddam Baathist
> > > dictatorshit. More lives would be saved if the pressure was placed on
> the
> > > establishment of democracy in Iraq -- established first by
annihilating
> > the
> > > Baathist regime. The pressure should be properly placed on the
long-term
> > > aftermath of the destruction of the Baathists.
> > >
> > >
> > > ========================================
> > >
> > > Thursday, October 10, 2002 Cheshvan 4, 5763 Israel Time: 01:32
> > > (GMT+3)
> > >
> > > Interview / Vicious circles closing in
> > > By Micha Odenheimer
> > >
> > > Thomas von der Osten-Sacken: "The most regressive and
> dangerous
> > > elements in the Arab and Islamic world depend on Saddam Hussein."
> > >
> > > A journalist, human rights activist and intellectual, Thomas von
> der
> > > Osten-Sacken is considered one of Germany's leading authorities on
human
> > > rights in Iraq. He began traveling to Iraq in 1991, when he spent
eight
> > > months doing humanitarian work in the southern part of the country
just
> > > after Saddam Hussein crushed the Shi'ite uprising there. In 1992, Von
> der
> > > Osten-Sacken co-founded an aid and advocacy organization called Wadi,
> > > operating in Iraqi Kurdistan - the semi-autonomous safe haven carved
out
> > for
> > > Kurdish refugees after the Gulf War - and on behalf of Iraqi refugees
in
> > > Germany. He spends part of each year in Kurdistan where Wadi has
founded
> > the
> > > first shelter there for women in distress and is also involved in
> helping
> > > the local government reform the prison system that has been left over
> from
> > > Iraqi rule. In Germany, Wadi advises Iraqi opposition groups and works
> > > closely with the Coalition for a Democratic Iraq.
> > >
> > > Von der Osten-Sacken, 34, publishes articles in German magazines
> > such
> > > as Jungle World and Konkret, and has co-edited a book on Iraq called
> > > "Saddam's Last Battle?", which is due to be published next month. He
is
> > one
> > > of the relatively few contemporary German writers and thinkers on the
> left
> > > who consider themselves pro-Israel and have developed a left-wing
> critique
> > > of the anti-globalization left in today's Europe. Along with his other
> > > activities, he is conducting research for his doctoral thesis on
> > > German-language Zionist newspapers in the 1930s for the German
> literature
> > > department at the University of Frankfurt.
> > >
> > > This interview was conducted with him earlier this week.
> > > ======================================================
> > >
> > > When did you first realize that the Iraqi regime was not just
> > another
> > > Middle East dictatorship?
> > >
> > > Von der Osten-Sacken: "When I first came to Iraq, I very quickly
> > > realized that I could not compare the situation there to other Middle
> > > Eastern countries I had been in, like Syria, Jordan or Egypt. This
> country
> > > was hell. We were the only Europeans in a city called Amara in the
> Shi'ite
> > > area of southern Iraq near Basra, and we arrived just a few weeks
after
> > the
> > > uprising had been crushed. There was a belt of tanks around the city.
> The
> > > majority of buildings were burned out. There was no food in the
market.
> > > There was also a terrible degree of malnourishment there.
> > >
> > > "People in Iraq won't talk freely, because they are terrified
that
> > > their friends are working for one of Saddam's nine horrible security
> > > services. Because of this atmosphere, it took us three or four months
to
> > > learn some details about the uprising. The Iraqis made people lie down
> in
> > > the streets and then buried them alive under asphalt. They killed
> everyone
> > > who looked a little religious, because this was a Shi'ite area. It was
> > > forbidden to take the corpses from the street. All in all, 60,000 or
> > 70,000
> > > people were killed in this area in 1991.
> > >
> > > "The first thing that was done after the uprising was crushed
was
> to
> > > repaint the pictures of Saddam Hussein. People had riddled them with
> > > bullets. Not one had been left. We were shocked at how neglected the
> south
> > > was, with open sewage systems, even though it is rich in oil. Saddam
> said
> > > before smashing the uprising that these Shi'ites were dirty people,
not
> > > really Iraqis. We left there in October '91 when we felt we could not
> > > continue our work without unintentionally helping the government."
> > >
> > > What was the atmosphere like in Baghdad then?
> > >
> > > "Baghdad was 300 kilometers away, and we went quite often - for
a
> > good
> > > dinner, to have a meeting with another organization or even to make a
> > phone
> > > call to Germany. The fear in Iraq, a BBC reporter said recently, is so
> > > palpable you can eat it. It's really indescribable. Syria is a
> > dictatorship,
> > > but the fear and control in Iraq reaches into your living room. If
there
> > is
> > > no picture of Saddam Hussein in your living room, you might be
arrested.
> > > There is no privacy. The Iraqi government considers everything
> political.
> > In
> > > Syria, as long as you are not a member of the opposition, you can
relax.
> > You
> > > know you will not be harmed. But in Iraq, if you are in the wrong
place
> at
> > > the wrong time, you may be arrested, tortured, killed."
> > >
> > > "When I was in southern Iraq in '91, we had a lot of
conversations
> > > with a very nice, very sophisticated doctor. One day, he was watching
> > > television and the Iraqi army was being praised for having won the
> second
> > > part of the Gulf War [after the initial U.S. attack aimed at driving
> Iraq
> > > out of Kuwait]. The doctor just said, `Well, it is a strange victory
if
> > > daily children are dying of hunger.' That was enough. Someone heard
him.
> > He
> > > was taken, tortured for three weeks and brought back a broken person.
> > > Letting one sentence slip is cause enough for a person to vanish into
an
> > > Iraqi prison or even to be killed."
> > >
> > > You have said that estimates are that Saddam has killed
> > approximately
> > > one million of his own citizens since 1979.
> > >
> > > "Yes, that would include Kurds, Shi'ites, Christians and Sunnis.
> > There
> > > were two huge massacres. There was the so-called Anfal campaign
against
> > the
> > > Kurds at the end of the 1980s when 4,000 villages were destroyed, and
> > about
> > > 100,000 to 150,000 persons were killed, some with poison gas. Up to a
> > > million people were sent into internal exile. The other big massacre
was
> > in
> > > the south in the 1990s, where the regime has killed about 300,000
> Shi'ites
> > > in the last 10 years. In addition, there have been enormous massacres
> > > against communists over the past two decades.
> > >
> > > "The estimate of one million killed only includes civilians. A
> > million
> > > Iraqi soldiers were killed in the Iran-Iraq war. A half-million Iraqis
> > died
> > > of hunger or disease because of sanctions on Iraq, and more were
killed
> in
> > > the Gulf War. Some 1.5 to two million people have been internally
> > displaced,
> > > and 4.5 million Iraqi refugees are scattered across the globe. Ten
> percent
> > > of the Iraqi population has been killed or deported during the rule of
> > > Saddam Hussein. That is the essence of his regime. It is not an
> accident.
> > It
> > > is systematic."
> > >
> > > What is the ideology behind Saddam Hussein's regime?
> > >
> > > "The Ba'ath ideology mixes pan-Arabism with admiration of
> Mussolini
> > > and Hitler, some ideas of state socialism and the notion of an Arab
> > > supremacy which will be realized after the Arabs have liberated
> themselves
> > > from foreign - that means mainly Jewish - influence and British and
> > American
> > > imperialism. Ba'athism is strongly anti-communist and
anti-imperialist,
> > and
> > > it is anti- Semitic from its beginning. Everything in Iraq is
explained
> > > through this huge conspiracy theory against the Arabs, in general, and
> > Iraq,
> > > in particular. Iraq is thought to be the greatest Arab nation and the
> > > natural leader of Arab unity."
> > >
> > > So Iraq sees itself as the center of the Arab world?
> > >
> > > "Yes, the leader of Arab unity. Saddam Hussein dreams of ruling
a
> > > united Arab nation that would become a superpower confronting East and
> > West.
> > > Iraqi children are taught in kindergarten that they have to be strong
> Arab
> > > fighters."
> > >
> > > Is Iraqi Ba'athism Islamist?
> > >
> > > "Pan-Arabism has always said that Mohammed is the forefather of
> > > pan-Arabism and that Islam was spoiled when it crossed the borders of
> the
> > > Arab world to Iran and Turkey. The task now is to `re-animate' the
real
> > > Islam that was taught by Mohammed as an Arab ideology. Especially
during
> > the
> > > Iran-Iraq war, when Iraq had to face the Iranian revolution, they
loaded
> > > their own ideology with Islamic content. The Iranians and the
Zionists,
> > they
> > > said, are part of a 2,000-year-old plot to smash Iraq and divide the
> > Arabs.
> > > `We are fighting for the real Islam' the regime said, not the kind of
> > > spoiled Islam that Iran represents. I think it was a mistake for the
> > > Americans to believe, as they did, that Iraq was a stronghold against
> > > Islam."
> > >
> > > Is it conceivable that Al Qaeda and Iraq have cooperated?
> > >
> > > "Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden share the same enemies, the
> same
> > > conspiracy theories. They share the claim that they are fighting in
the
> > name
> > > of the Arab masses. Both these men grew up in the same poisoned
climate
> of
> > > Arab dictatorships. Their ideologies are quite close, even if Saddam
is
> > not
> > > an Islamist. And since he has been supporting many terror
organizations,
> I
> > > would not be surprised if there are close ties on the ground between
> Iraq
> > > and Al Qaeda.
> > >
> > > "I think that Osama bin Laden is trying to walk in the footsteps
> of
> > > Saddam Hussein. At the same time, Saddam Hussein in the 1990s was
trying
> > to
> > > strengthen the ties between Iraq and the Islamic movements. He put
> `Allah
> > > Akhbar' [`God is great'] into the flag of Iraq and also financed
> different
> > > Islamic groups in Palestine and other places in the Arab world. There
is
> a
> > > terrorist education center in Baghdad called Salmanpak and according
to
> > the
> > > Iraqi opposition, in the mid-'90s, terrorists from other countries
were
> > > being trained there in such skills as how to hijack planes and use
> > chemical
> > > weapons. They may be cooperating and even if they are not, these are
two
> > > trees growing in the same soil."
> > >
> > > So you would not agree with the idea that the war on Iraq is a
> > > distraction from the war against terror that President George Bush has
> > > proclaimed.
> > >
> > > "American policy in Iraq is a series of huge mistakes. Firstly,
it
> > was
> > > a mistake to support that horrible regime in the 1980s knowing, for
> > example,
> > > about the massacres against the Kurds. Secondly, it was a huge mistake
> not
> > > to let the Iraqi people topple Saddam in '91. The Americans feared
> > democracy
> > > in the Middle East, they feared the breakup of Iraq because it would
> > > strengthen Iran, so they allowed Saddam to crush the uprising.
> > >
> > > "With regimes like the Iraqi one, there will be no peace in the
> > Middle
> > > East. You cannot contain a regime like Saddam Hussein's. That was a
> > mistake
> > > of the West. So the question is: Is America ready to face up to the
> > mistakes
> > > it made in '91 and in the '80s? Are the Americans ready to support
> > > democracy? Because people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden grew
> out
> > > of the Middle East. They are not products of Afghanistan."
> > >
> > > What kind of influence does Saddam have in the Arab street, and
> what
> > > kind of affect could it have to topple him?
> > >
> > > "The most regressive and dangerous elements in the Arab and
> Islamic
> > > world depend on Saddam Hussein. Really toppling Saddam Hussein means
> > > uprooting the Ba'ath regime, with the help of the Iraqi people. This
> would
> > > give the final blow to pan-Arabism in the Middle East. Syria and a lot
> of
> > > very radical factions in Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and the Gulf states
> > would
> > > be affected. These factions look up to Saddam Hussein as a
pan-Arabist,
> > > anti-imperialist hero - although he is anti-imperialist in the
tradition
> > of
> > > the Nazis, not the left. Also, Saddam is financing organizations like
> the
> > > Arab Liberation Front in Palestine, which is a Ba'ath organization. He
> is
> > > paying the families of suicide attackers. He is directly and
indirectly
> > > responsible for a lot of terrorism in the Middle East."
> > >
> > > What is his relationship with Yasser Arafat and the PLO?
> > >
> > > "Part of the Palestinian establishment has very close ties to
Iraq
> > > since 1991 when the Palestinians decided to support Saddam, which was
a
> > huge
> > > mistake. This includes some quite influential figures within the
> security
> > > apparatus of Yasser Arafat and the PLO. There is a struggle within the
> > > Palestinian establishment right now over whether these elements should
> be
> > > isolated. I think that certain people like Abu Mazen and some of the
> > > security forces who were trained by the CIA are struggling against
> others
> > > who have very close ties to Baghdad, and who still want to join Iraq
in
> > the
> > > next battle with terrorist attacks, or worse - with chemical or
> biological
> > > attacks on Israel or somewhere else in the world. That, I think, would
> be
> > > another terrible mistake for the Palestinians to make."
> > >
> > > What will have to be done, the day after Saddam is gone, to make
> the
> > > distinction between merely switching Iraqi regimes and starting
> something
> > > completely new and democratic?
> > >
> > > "In 1991, the Americans feared the results of a public uprising.
> > They
> > > hoped to find someone within the military who could topple Saddam
> Hussein
> > > and rule Iraq with some cosmetic changes, but with the same security
> > > apparatus. This hope proved a failure because for 25 years, Saddam has
> > been
> > > trying to get rid of anyone that might pose a threat to him. Every
> > > influential general has been killed. Yearly cleansing campaigns are
> > carried
> > > out against high-ranking members of the Ba'ath Party so that no one
can
> > > threaten the position of his family, which is more or less ruling
Iraq.
> > The
> > > hawks in the U.S., people like Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney or Richard
> > > Perle, analyzed the situation and realized that they cannot just
change
> > > someone at the top. It is not like a South American dictatorship. If
> they
> > > really want change, they have to create a new Iraq.
> > >
> > > "Iraq is so ruthless and cruel against any opposition that
people
> > > cannot rise up without an outside trigger. But the moment a
possibility
> is
> > > created, the vast majority of the Iraqi people will rise up. They will
> > > uproot the Ba'ath Party and even take personal revenge on the ruling
> > regime;
> > > you won't have any Ba'ath Party anymore. So you really have to think
> about
> > > what to do afterward. The only alternative is creating a democracy,
> which
> > is
> > > a real experiment because nothing like this exists in the region. Iraq
> > > considers itself an Arab country, but actually contains nearly all the
> > > different minority and ethnic groups of the Middle East.
> > >
> > > "So, if it is really done with heart, it is the first step to
> > creating
> > > a new Middle East. A democracy in the region will very much affect
other
> > > countries. It is a huge challenge and experiment. The question is: Do
> the
> > > Americans know what they are going to do there? Because Turkey, Iran
and
> > > Europe will all try to impose their own policy. Iraq is an oil-rich
> > country
> > > and you don't know if this great game will not lead to catastrophe."
> > >
> > > Does Iraq have a national identity that could come together as a
> > > democracy? Or are these fears that the Shi'ites and Kurds will split
off
> > > legitimate?
> > >
> > > "Iraq is very unique in the Arab world. First of all, you
already
> > have
> > > a very long tradition of opposition to the central regime. And you
have
> a
> > > tradition of a national identity. Even the Kurds in Iraq never wanted
to
> > > split off, unlike their brethren in Turkey. They want a federal Iraq
> with
> > > strong Kurdish autonomy. I don't think the Shi'ites want to split off.
> > > Usually the minority is the one that wants to split off. The Shi'ite
are
> > the
> > > majority in Iraq. What they want is more influence in Baghdad. From my
> > > experience from living there, I don't think the Shi'ites are attracted
> by
> > > the mullah regime of Iran. You also have a strong leftist tradition,
> > mainly
> > > in places like Basra and Amara, and Iraq has one of the oldest and
> > strongest
> > > communist parties in the Middle East. This tradition has been strongly
> > > repressed by the Ba'ath Party, but it still exists.
> > >
> > > "I think the Kurdish autonomy is a positive example for Iraq.
> > > Kurdistan has horrible conditions. It's not recognized
internationally.
> It
> > > is more or less under double embargo: the international sanctions
> against
> > > Iraq and some internal sanctions from the central government. Turkey,
> Iran
> > > and Syria are all trying to destabilize the Kurds. But even under
these
> > dire
> > > circumstances, the Kurds have been able to build up what is not really
a
> > > democracy, but a place which is, except for Israel, the most liberal
and
> > > free in the Middle East. There are a lot of newspapers, freedom of
> speech,
> > > up to a limit - you are not allowed to insult the Kurdish political
> > > leaders - but in comparison with central Iraq, you can really call it
> > > paradise. And there is to a certain extent democracy. If the Kurds are
> > able
> > > to do it, why shouldn't the Iraqis, with assistance from abroad?"
> > >
> > > Are you in favor of waging war against Iraq?
> > >
> > > "Let me say first that I am not in favor of war, especially
until
> we
> > > know how the Americans want to conduct the war. But one also has to
> > consider
> > > that what the Lebanese intellectual Fouad Ajami has said: that for 30
> > years,
> > > Iraq has been conducting a war against its own society. Saddam Hussein
> is
> > > conducting a war against his own people and it must be stopped. It is
> hard
> > > to think of another people who have suffered in the last 20 years like
> the
> > > Iraqi people have suffered at the hands of Saddam Hussein and because
of
> > > international policy aimed at containing him. If Americans are really
> > ready
> > > to topple him, it might be very good for the Iraqi people and very
good
> > for
> > > the region. If the Americans start just another stupid war like the
one
> in
> > > 1991, then I am against it, too.
> > >
> > > "At this very moment there is a huge Arabization campaign
against
> > > Kurds living in Karkuk. People are systematically deported because the
> > > regime wants to change a Kurdish city into an Arab one. Just now there
> are
> > > tremendous prison cleansing campaigns. Every Wednesday, the security
> > forces
> > > come into the largest prison in Baghdad and say: You, you, you and
you.
> > Five
> > > hundred people are taken out to be killed just because the prisons are
> > > overcrowded. The Iraqi National Congress says that there are 600,000
to
> > > 700,000 political prisoners in Iraqi detention camps at present.
> > >
> > > "So the question is: Are they really ready to support democracy
in
> > the
> > > Middle East? In that case, I think the war is necessary and good. Or
do
> > they
> > > just want to put some horrible general in instead of Saddam? Then I
> oppose
> > > this war very much."
> > >
> > > During the Gulf War in 1991, Israel refrained from retaliating
> after
> > > the Scud missile attacks. How should Israel respond if it is attacked
> this
> > > time?
> > >
> > > "Seventy percent of the Iraqi people are allies of the
Americans.
> If
> > > the war is waged correctly, it will focus on the regime, on the
leaders,
> > on
> > > the security apparatus and on this horrible Ba'ath Party, but not on
the
> > > Iraqi people. So if Israel is attacked, it should consider this point:
> > This
> > > is a war against the regime, and the Iraqi people are allies in
fighting
> > > Saddam Hussein. So it is very important to refrain from attacking
> > civilians.
> > > There has been a debate about Israel nuking Iraq if attacked with
> weapons
> > of
> > > mass destruction. That would be a disaster - the end of the
> > democratization
> > > of the Middle East. Everyone would be against the Iraqi opposition and
> > > against Israel. If there is a need for Israel to strike back, it
should
> > only
> > > be against military targets. Israel should openly declare that it is
not
> > > conducting a war against the Iraqi people, and that it is ready to
> support
> > a
> > > multi-ethnic democracy in Iraq, friendly to the Iraqi people and only
> > > hostile to this government."
> > >
> > > What is the attitude toward Israel and the United States in
> > liberated
> > > Kurdistan?
> > >
> > > "The United States created the safe haven in 1991 not for the
> Kurds,
> > > but to protect Iran and Turkey from the influx of refugees. Still,
> people
> > > know that they are protected by the U.S. and they have a positive
> attitude
> > > toward it. I spent September 11, 2001 in Kurdistan in front of the
> > > television and the next day, I crossed through Syria to Jordan. In
> Syria,
> > > people told me that it was a conspiracy against the Arabs, but in
> > Kurdistan,
> > > people were deeply shocked and sorry for the victims of the World
Trade
> > > Center attack.
> > >
> > > "In regard to Israel, it's astonishing: The Kurds were all
taught
> in
> > > Iraqi schools that the Jews and Israel are the main enemy,
> blood-suckers,
> > > part of a huge conspiracy, but I did not find any real anti-Israel
> > > sentiments. Critics of the occupation, of the settlements, yes, there
> are
> > > some, and I think that is legitimate, but no anti-Semitic conspiracy
> > theory.
> > > In fact, people in Kurdistan are now starting to reflect on the mass
> > > immigration of Kurdish Jews in the 1950s when 99 percent of the Jewish
> > > community left mostly to Israel. Many times, I heard Kurds saying that
> it
> > > was sad that this living together with Jews had stopped, and that the
> > Jewish
> > > heritage of Kurdistan should be kept alive.
> > >
> > > "Also, you have to understand the dynamic. Nearly every week,
> Saddam
> > > Hussein or a leading Ba'ath member declares that Iraqi Kurdistan is
the
> > > Israel of Iraq, or accuses the Kurds of being Zionists agents. The
same
> > > thing is said about every opposition party - be they Islamists,
> > > nationalists, communists or Christians. People who are anti-Zionist
> > > themselves, such as Iraqi communists, are put into prison, tortured
and
> > > killed as Zionist spies. That forces people to have a different
attitude
> > > toward the whole Middle East conspiracy theory. I think this is why
> > > intellectual Iraqis abroad are much less likely to be anti-Israel than
> > other
> > > Arab intellectuals. Iraqis oppose pan-Arabism and Ba'athism much more
> than
> > > they oppose Israel. So, it may be more possible to find a way to work
> with
> > a
> > > future Iraqi government than with any other government in the region.
If
> > the
> > > Kurds are strong in Baghdad, the Jews will not face this irrational
> > > anti-Jewish sentiment."
> > >
> > > What do you think drives German policy against U.S. intervention
> in
> > > Iraq?
> > >
> > > "Germany gains very good material benefit from Iraq. One should
> not
> > > forget that German technology enabled Iraq to enlarge the range of the
> > Scud
> > > missiles so that they could reach Israel, that without German
> assistance,
> > > Iraq would not have been able to gas Iranian soldiers or its own
people
> in
> > > Kurdistan or to threaten Israel. So there are deep relations. Iran,
> Libya
> > > and Syria, but especially Iraq, have this relationship with Germany.
> > German
> > > policy has always put its eggs in Saddam's basket and gained from
trade
> > with
> > > Iraq, especially after '91 when America and England were out of Iraq.
> > >
> > > "Also, ideology is important, especially at such times as during
> the
> > > last election campaign when the Social Democrats start to play on the
> > > anti-American piano. There are very close ties between a certain
German
> > > ideology dating back to the 19th century, running through World War I
> and
> > > escalating in World War II with the Nazis and continuing afterward,
> which
> > > has close ties to pan-Arabism. One that shares the same enemies:
> America,
> > > the Jews, Israel. Anti-American and anti-Israel resentments are very
> > strong
> > > in Germany and they have become stronger since 1989.
> > >
> > > "Saddam Hussein is not usually seen in Germany as a horrible
> > dictator
> > > murdering his own people. People blame the sanctions and not him, and
> > people
> > > blame the Israeli occupation for the whole situation in the Middle
East,
> > not
> > > Palestinian terrorists or Saddam for continually destabilizing the
> region.
> > > Also, since 1945, many Germans have very strong anti-war feelings,
> > > especially if these wars are conducted by the United States. The
> majority
> > of
> > > people opposed the second part of the Gulf War; there were tremendous
> > > demonstrations against it. Now this opposition is stronger, because
> > Germany
> > > is stronger.
> > >
> > > "Germany is now conducting its own independent foreign policy,
> which
> > > in the last two to four years, has become simply to contrast itself to
> the
> > > U.S. If the U.S. is supporting a government, we should support the
> > > opposition to this government. In the Middle East, there is an attempt
> to
> > > tighten relations with Syria, Lebanon, the Palestinians and Iraq.
Also,
> > the
> > > Germans are quite afraid of the archives in Baghdad and what they tell
> > about
> > > the poison gas and other weapons deals that were made between Iraq and
a
> > lot
> > > of German enterprises."
> > >
> > > So both the left and the right in Germany have strong
> anti-American
> > > feeling?
> > >
> > > "Anti-American and anti-Israeli-anti-Semitic. At the moment, you
> can
> > > hardly distinguish between the very far right wing and the very far
left
> > > wing. The far right openly supports Saddam Hussein, saying that he is
> > > fighting the Jews and the Americans and thus supporting the German
> battle.
> > > And certain left-wingers from an orthodox left-wing tradition think
that
> > > Saddam Hussein is anti-imperialist, anti-globalization, that he is
> > fighting
> > > for the rights of the Arabs to self-determination. Others on the left
> say
> > > that Saddam may be horrible, but another American war will not solve
any
> > > problems. The war will just help Israel's interest, so we should
oppose
> > it.
> > > This is also the governmental policy at the moment."
> > >
> > > The European and Third World left have developed an ideology
that
> > > unites anti-globalization, anti-Americanism, anti-Israel feeling and,
to
> a
> > > certain extent, anti-Semitism. What is the internal logic behind this
> > > combination?
> > >
> > > "This is not a very new phenomenon. In the German left, these
> > > attitudes existed during the 1920s with the idea of `a shortened
> > > anti-capitalism' that distinguished very sharply between financial
> capital
> > > and productive capital, and demonized financial capital. This idea was
> > later
> > > adapted by the Nazis, and is in itself anti-Semitic because Jews are
> > > identified with the circulation sphere - with banks. Whoever does not
> > > criticize capitalism in a Marxist way, but criticizes only the surface
> > > [aspects] of capitalism - the huge banks or the monopoly capitalists -
> is
> > > automatically using an anti-Semitic phraseology, even if he is not
> > speaking
> > > about Jews or Israel. This is what some of the anti-globalization
> rhetoric
> > > is about.
> > >
> > > "These associations are so deeply written inside European and
> > > especially German history, that you can be anti-Semitic without even
> > > mentioning Jews. This way of thinking was kept alive in certain
Leninist
> > > groups and in the far right wing in the '60s and '70s, and now it is
> more
> > or
> > > less unfolding in the mainstream movements. It is always a question of
> > > whether these resentments, which are quite common, are taboo or
whether
> > the
> > > government is signaling that they can be voiced. Until 1989,
> anti-Semitism
> > > and anti-Americanism were taboo in Germany. These views found space on
> the
> > > left and on the far right. In the middle of society, they were hidden
in
> > the
> > > signals and phrases communicated in the subtext. Now, due to the new
> > > international constellation, the taboo has broken down and these ideas
> can
> > > be found in the mainstream.
> > >
> > > "So you have more or less the same idea that you had since the
> '20s:
> > > There is a global struggle pitting the `good' people who are fighting
> > > against colonialization against a conspiracy between the huge American
> > > trusts, banks and the Jews, which wants to force the world to adapt a
> > > universal capitalism. The Jews were also accused then of being the
> > purveyors
> > > of the global communist principle, but since 1989, that has been
> > forgotten.
> > > These old ideas were re-animated now due to the ethnic conflicts in
the
> > > Balkans and the conflict in the Middle East, and especially since
> > September
> > > 11, when the focus has been on the conflict between the Palestinians
and
> > > Israel, and the conflict between Iraq on one side and the U.S. and
> Britain
> > > on the other."
> > >
> > > Leaving aside the overt anti-Semitism, what do you, as a
Marxist,
> > see
> > > as the primary mistake of this ideology that is attacking the U.S. as
> the
> > > purveyor of global capitalism?
> > >
> > > "The moment this anti-globalization ideology brings together
> Hamas,
> > > Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, nationalistic movements in the
Balkans,
> > the
> > > Zapatists in Mexico, and the neo-Nazi right wing, which is very active
> in
> > > the anti-globalization movement, it means they are not fighting for
> > > universal freedom, liberation and emancipation, but are reproducing
> > > anti-universalist, anti-Semitic stereotypes that are only leading to
> > > barbarism. Rosa Luxemburg once said that the question is socialism or
> > > barbarism, and that question is still valid. But at the moment, I
think
> > the
> > > fight is to defend the Western world against those who would like to
be
> > its
> > > successors. These people are also, dialectically, the products of the
> > > Western, capitalistic world. Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden grew
out
> > of
> > > the bad politics of the U.S. and Europe in the Middle East. They
didn't
> > fall
> > > from the moon.
> > >
> > > "But at the moment, I think one has to support the West, which
> means
> > > in this case America, Britain and Israel, in its battle against its
own
> > > creations. Then you can think again of how to create a much better
> world.
> > > The questions the anti-globalization movement raises are very
> important -
> > > issues like the environment, world hunger and the enrichment of a very
> > small
> > > minority of people while the vast majority become poorer. But with the
> > > Ba'ath Party and Hamas as your actors, you will not change anything.
> They
> > > are not the historical subjects who are carrying the idea of
> emancipation.
> > >
> > > "In extremis, you have a constellation that reminds one of the
> '30s.
> > > On the one hand, you have Britain, the U.S. and Israel - the Jews are
> > always
> > > in the metaphysical center of these conflicts. This side is fighting
for
> a
> > > capitalistic Western ideology. Then you have these National Socialist,
> > > self-determination ideas, which are always led by the Germans. In
1939,
> > the
> > > Germans said that they were fighting universal capitalism and for
> > > self-determination in the Third World. They had a very
anti-colonialist
> > > phraseology. You can find the same words and the same phrases as are
> being
> > > used today in the '40s when the Germans were supporting India's and
the
> > > Arabs' revolt against the British. Even France is again in the same
> > > position - supporting Britain and the U.S. half-heartedly.
> > >
> > > "Ten years ago, everyone thought Germany was a close ally of the
> > U.S.,
> > > supporting its policy. But no. In this conflict, Germany is signaling
> that
> > > it is standing on the other side. Everywhere in the Middle East, in
the
> > > Syrian press, in the Hezbollah press, in the Baghdadi press, Germany
is
> > > being praised for taking the same side they did 50 years ago. So
people
> > > understand what the Germans are doing. And I think that that is quite
> > > interesting - and quite horrifying."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
Re: PussyWally of Please
Thanx for the advice..
marc
> On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, furtherfield wrote:
>
> > It's about Money, Power, Oil, Blokes making a windfall - christ! This
world
> > is plummeting into a one dimensional level...duh!
> > marc
>
> Too bad your own interpretation of what's going on is flat
> uni-dimensional reaction to it?
> Though the idea to observe--and actively is not so bad.
> Yourself as well as others, that is.
> But maybe throw out the inbred psychology and keep it to basics.
> Like pair your palette down.
>
> `, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42
>
>
marc
> On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, furtherfield wrote:
>
> > It's about Money, Power, Oil, Blokes making a windfall - christ! This
world
> > is plummeting into a one dimensional level...duh!
> > marc
>
> Too bad your own interpretation of what's going on is flat
> uni-dimensional reaction to it?
> Though the idea to observe--and actively is not so bad.
> Yourself as well as others, that is.
> But maybe throw out the inbred psychology and keep it to basics.
> Like pair your palette down.
>
> `, . ` `k a r e i' ? ' D42
>
>