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BIO
Marc Garrett is co-director and co-founder, with artist Ruth Catlow of the Internet arts collectives and communities – Furtherfield.org, Furthernoise.org, Netbehaviour.org, also co-founder and co-curator/director of the gallery space formerly known as 'HTTP Gallery' now called the Furtherfield Gallery in London (Finsbury Park), UK. Co-curating various contemporary Media Arts exhibitions, projects nationally and internationally. Co-editor of 'Artists Re:Thinking Games' with Ruth Catlow and Corrado Morgana 2010. Hosted Furtherfield's critically acclaimed weekly broadcast on UK's Resonance FM Radio, a series of hour long live interviews with people working at the edge of contemporary practices in art, technology & social change. Currently doing an Art history Phd at the University of London, Birkbeck College.
Net artist, media artist, curator, writer, street artist, activist, educationalist and musician. Emerging in the late 80′s from the streets exploring creativity via agit-art tactics. Using unofficial, experimental platforms such as the streets, pirate radio such as the locally popular ‘Savage Yet Tender’ alternative broadcasting 1980′s group, net broadcasts, BBS systems, performance, intervention, events, pamphlets, warehouses and gallery spaces. In the early nineties, was co-sysop (systems operator) with Heath Bunting on Cybercafe BBS with Irational.org.
Our mission is to co-create extraordinary art that connects with contemporary audiences providing innovative, engaging and inclusive digital and physical spaces for appreciating and participating in practices in art, technology and social change. As well as finding alternative ways around already dominating hegemonies, thus claiming for ourselves and our peer networks a culturally aware and critical dialogue beyond traditional hierarchical behaviours. Influenced by situationist theory, fluxus, free and open source culture, and processes of self-education and peer learning, in an art, activist and community context.
Net artist, media artist, curator, writer, street artist, activist, educationalist and musician. Emerging in the late 80′s from the streets exploring creativity via agit-art tactics. Using unofficial, experimental platforms such as the streets, pirate radio such as the locally popular ‘Savage Yet Tender’ alternative broadcasting 1980′s group, net broadcasts, BBS systems, performance, intervention, events, pamphlets, warehouses and gallery spaces. In the early nineties, was co-sysop (systems operator) with Heath Bunting on Cybercafe BBS with Irational.org.
Our mission is to co-create extraordinary art that connects with contemporary audiences providing innovative, engaging and inclusive digital and physical spaces for appreciating and participating in practices in art, technology and social change. As well as finding alternative ways around already dominating hegemonies, thus claiming for ourselves and our peer networks a culturally aware and critical dialogue beyond traditional hierarchical behaviours. Influenced by situationist theory, fluxus, free and open source culture, and processes of self-education and peer learning, in an art, activist and community context.
Re: Re: [thingist] Rub Linda the right way and she might show you wonderland
>marc, I understand there is a level of sensitivity that regards the use of
>images of the dead with a horror based upon their own inner understanding
of
>what their response would be if such happened to a loved one of theirs.
Good - I'm glad, so you'll also understand that it ain't ethical to use
people's dead bodies for something as disposable as a statement then?
>I have the ability to empathize with this sensitivity. On the other hand, I
am able
>to understand the desire on the part of an impotent poplulation to express
the
>horror of what is happening to them by displaying their maimed dead for the
>world to see.
I still believe that it could of been shown in a different way, not losing
impact.
>I want war to stop in Iraq, I don't want the taste for blood to
>continue expanding.
I know that you want war to stop in Iraq. I do not doubt this at all.
>Given that the Arab world is displaying their dead for a
>similar purpose, I don't feel I have violated them at all.
We are not isolated by distance
But by greed and our racist history
Just a wall's width away
Still impossible to reach across
This space in front of me
It's we who write this history
We who guard the money-tree
We support the companies
We stole the colonies
extract from a chumbawumba song...
>Maybe I am
>exploitive in the sense that Lewis described, where the choice of any
subject
>exploits it. But it is not for the intended purpose of personal fame or
>fortune.
This also I know. your intention is shrouded by the death of real people.
Picasso did not paint Guernica with photographs of the dead, he painted it
with his soul. This might sound corny, but so what - if emotion is seen as
corny, tuff. A bit more intuitve learning could bash the delusion of
theoretical hide & seek. You got that luv thang in you - and I see others
kicking your ass for not towing the line & filling in your text with
academic references to hide your real intentions - yes I now that you are
doing it for real.
This is not my beef - I feel that too many images of dead people have been
mediated, almost like their souls are being re-invented for other
functions - it's getting like a bloody 'Dirty Harry go-round otu there'.
What do we know of their history, their real lives? Nothing...
What do we know about them now - they are dead.
Now everything is consumed, mediated these days...I feel that a more potent
weapon against
death, is not an argument against death but an argument for life...
> Marc, my answer was not disrespectful. It was exactly what happened. I
issued a
> marketing document with a seductive come-on. You (and others) responded
to the
> marketing and went to the product. You succombed to the come-on (shoot
and
> destroy, rub and fuck) to click on the associated image (defenseless
flower,
> unsuspecting woman's body) to reveal not the wonders offered, but instead,
as
> you said, the disturbed peace of the dead.
No Joseph - you compiled it, placed the images there. Then I was invited to
shoot your visual prisoners unkowingly - then I shot them. It's like being
stopped by a cop & one of them plants some crack on me then says 'you're
nicked for possessing drugs'. I was framed.
I am culpable to the extent that I
> placed the opportunity within your reach, but I didn't make the guilty
decision
> to indulge in the sinful act. Isn't this what the government does? Tie in
basic
> impulses into their agendas via propoganda that people just follow,
thinking it
> is easy and as guilt free as clicking on the screen?
I agree with you regarding the psychology of consumer culture feeling
legitimate and valid, safe- shoppers of the world unite via corporate
products - death saves (cash), builds other nations. I prefer your other
version of the dancer - yet still have trouble with dead dead people
displayed. Yet, I may seem like a conservative here, and also I could be all
wrong.
'It ain't unusual to be wrong every now & then, dah, dah dah dooo'.
marc
>images of the dead with a horror based upon their own inner understanding
of
>what their response would be if such happened to a loved one of theirs.
Good - I'm glad, so you'll also understand that it ain't ethical to use
people's dead bodies for something as disposable as a statement then?
>I have the ability to empathize with this sensitivity. On the other hand, I
am able
>to understand the desire on the part of an impotent poplulation to express
the
>horror of what is happening to them by displaying their maimed dead for the
>world to see.
I still believe that it could of been shown in a different way, not losing
impact.
>I want war to stop in Iraq, I don't want the taste for blood to
>continue expanding.
I know that you want war to stop in Iraq. I do not doubt this at all.
>Given that the Arab world is displaying their dead for a
>similar purpose, I don't feel I have violated them at all.
We are not isolated by distance
But by greed and our racist history
Just a wall's width away
Still impossible to reach across
This space in front of me
It's we who write this history
We who guard the money-tree
We support the companies
We stole the colonies
extract from a chumbawumba song...
>Maybe I am
>exploitive in the sense that Lewis described, where the choice of any
subject
>exploits it. But it is not for the intended purpose of personal fame or
>fortune.
This also I know. your intention is shrouded by the death of real people.
Picasso did not paint Guernica with photographs of the dead, he painted it
with his soul. This might sound corny, but so what - if emotion is seen as
corny, tuff. A bit more intuitve learning could bash the delusion of
theoretical hide & seek. You got that luv thang in you - and I see others
kicking your ass for not towing the line & filling in your text with
academic references to hide your real intentions - yes I now that you are
doing it for real.
This is not my beef - I feel that too many images of dead people have been
mediated, almost like their souls are being re-invented for other
functions - it's getting like a bloody 'Dirty Harry go-round otu there'.
What do we know of their history, their real lives? Nothing...
What do we know about them now - they are dead.
Now everything is consumed, mediated these days...I feel that a more potent
weapon against
death, is not an argument against death but an argument for life...
> Marc, my answer was not disrespectful. It was exactly what happened. I
issued a
> marketing document with a seductive come-on. You (and others) responded
to the
> marketing and went to the product. You succombed to the come-on (shoot
and
> destroy, rub and fuck) to click on the associated image (defenseless
flower,
> unsuspecting woman's body) to reveal not the wonders offered, but instead,
as
> you said, the disturbed peace of the dead.
No Joseph - you compiled it, placed the images there. Then I was invited to
shoot your visual prisoners unkowingly - then I shot them. It's like being
stopped by a cop & one of them plants some crack on me then says 'you're
nicked for possessing drugs'. I was framed.
I am culpable to the extent that I
> placed the opportunity within your reach, but I didn't make the guilty
decision
> to indulge in the sinful act. Isn't this what the government does? Tie in
basic
> impulses into their agendas via propoganda that people just follow,
thinking it
> is easy and as guilt free as clicking on the screen?
I agree with you regarding the psychology of consumer culture feeling
legitimate and valid, safe- shoppers of the world unite via corporate
products - death saves (cash), builds other nations. I prefer your other
version of the dancer - yet still have trouble with dead dead people
displayed. Yet, I may seem like a conservative here, and also I could be all
wrong.
'It ain't unusual to be wrong every now & then, dah, dah dah dooo'.
marc
Re: Dia article in NYTimes Mag
HI T.Whid...
>
> OK, that's what I was thinking. This goes back a bit to my google/net
> art masterpiece post. It's practically impossible to make something
> that competes with the industrial world on a technical level.
>
One would hope that it might take more than how big one's techno-wallet is
for net/web/new media to gain a 'genuine' influence on the Art World.
Creative Captial is kool - but it by no means is the only way.
Yet, it does worry me that institutions are beginning to sculpt the Internet
Art scene in their own reflection. This sort of function shuts doors on
others
whom have been getting on with their creative net thang already. No surprise
there...
> How do we find a funder on that level? John Johnson is doing
> something over at Eyebeam, but they don't have the kind of dough
> we're talking about. Creative Capital is too broad in scope, they're
> not really a net/web/new media funder.
Alternative strategies are called for, outside art circles - More connexions
beyond the converted - Less uneccessary Jargon~Real networking...the medium
is no longer the message.
>
> Is it something we can prod along? or do we have to wait for the
> patron to fall out of the sky and hope she lands on us?
Never wait for a patron, they are really just rich stylists hiding a bad,
bad hairdo. Why don't we become our own patrons, start something genuine,
something that really crosses borders & not rely on net mythology (divide
us) to get us
all by. Create our own paths. Take these institutions on - bruise em' a
little so they know what's happening for real. Form alternatives - net
funded by our own
'share holder' businesses, our own investments into companies that kick -
scum companies butts. Might be a place worth exploring...
> well, the 'heroic' era of net art is tongue-in-cheek.
http://art.teleportacia.org/about/about_alexei.html/
nothing heroic about this text ...
you're right, it is a joke.
But it's a double whammy
more real than the joke ironicly alludes...
marc
>
> OK, that's what I was thinking. This goes back a bit to my google/net
> art masterpiece post. It's practically impossible to make something
> that competes with the industrial world on a technical level.
>
One would hope that it might take more than how big one's techno-wallet is
for net/web/new media to gain a 'genuine' influence on the Art World.
Creative Captial is kool - but it by no means is the only way.
Yet, it does worry me that institutions are beginning to sculpt the Internet
Art scene in their own reflection. This sort of function shuts doors on
others
whom have been getting on with their creative net thang already. No surprise
there...
> How do we find a funder on that level? John Johnson is doing
> something over at Eyebeam, but they don't have the kind of dough
> we're talking about. Creative Capital is too broad in scope, they're
> not really a net/web/new media funder.
Alternative strategies are called for, outside art circles - More connexions
beyond the converted - Less uneccessary Jargon~Real networking...the medium
is no longer the message.
>
> Is it something we can prod along? or do we have to wait for the
> patron to fall out of the sky and hope she lands on us?
Never wait for a patron, they are really just rich stylists hiding a bad,
bad hairdo. Why don't we become our own patrons, start something genuine,
something that really crosses borders & not rely on net mythology (divide
us) to get us
all by. Create our own paths. Take these institutions on - bruise em' a
little so they know what's happening for real. Form alternatives - net
funded by our own
'share holder' businesses, our own investments into companies that kick -
scum companies butts. Might be a place worth exploring...
> well, the 'heroic' era of net art is tongue-in-cheek.
http://art.teleportacia.org/about/about_alexei.html/
nothing heroic about this text ...
you're right, it is a joke.
But it's a double whammy
more real than the joke ironicly alludes...
marc
Re: Dia article in NYTimes Mag
lots of software licenses?
Nooooooo..........
marc
> >Alex Galloway wrote:
> >> of Dia's twenty net art commissions
> >> (http://www.diacenter.org/rooftop/webproj/index.html), nine
> >> of them are the first web-based projects by the artists. that's
> >> a yawn of a curatorial strategy. Olia & Dragan and Jim
> >> Buckhouse are the only names on the list that have any
> >> experience with the net art scene. hmmm. Lynne Cooke,
> >> let's do lunch. we need to talk.
> >
> >That's for sure. My jaw dropped to the floor when I read this in
> >Mirapaul's article:
> > Lynne Cooke, the Dia's curator, said the center
> > favored artists unfamiliar with the Internet. "Artists
> > who work with something where they don't know
> > the rules beforehand are more inclined to push the
> > envelope than those who are already very dextrous,"
> > she said.
> >
> >I wouldn't know where to begin punching holes in the logic behind that
> >statement. Maybe it's just a fancy way of saying "we don't really know
> >any net artists", but it felt like a big fat middle finger to all the
> >hard-working, mega-innovative, and mad-skilled net artists I know.
>
> truth. i think it's a way of saying, "we don't understand the net art
> that pushes the envelope so we'll give a commission to someone who is
> safe to make net art which seems to push the envelope if you don't
> understand the medium."
>
> anyway, my point was that at the time the Dia was founded they had a
> visionary who understood that there were some artists doing something
> new that needed major backing and gave it to them. I wonder what net,
> web new media artists could do with that sort of backing.
>
> do we have ideas of 'heroic' scale that need that sort of backing or
> do all we need is a t1 line, a phat server, a screaming workstation
> and lots of software licenses?
>
>
> >like some of the Dia commissions, but as a whole they're not really
> >envelope-pushing to anyone who gets around the web much.
> >
> >Also, it seems like many of these 'traditional-artists-cum-net-artists'
> >seem to end up having a bunch of assistants and volunteers build the
> >projects for them anyway. I don't have a problem with that per se (I
> >look forward to the day where I can hire better programmers to help
> >build my net art for me) but it makes Lynne Cooke's statement that much
> >more difficult to swallow.
> >
> >I don't think I know the 'rules of painting'. Maybe I should apply for a
> >painting commission and hire 'dextrous' young painters to build my
> >'envelope-pushing' painting ideas.
>
> i see a whole new career for you chris.
> --
> <twhid>
> http://www.mteww.com
> </twhid>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
Nooooooo..........
marc
> >Alex Galloway wrote:
> >> of Dia's twenty net art commissions
> >> (http://www.diacenter.org/rooftop/webproj/index.html), nine
> >> of them are the first web-based projects by the artists. that's
> >> a yawn of a curatorial strategy. Olia & Dragan and Jim
> >> Buckhouse are the only names on the list that have any
> >> experience with the net art scene. hmmm. Lynne Cooke,
> >> let's do lunch. we need to talk.
> >
> >That's for sure. My jaw dropped to the floor when I read this in
> >Mirapaul's article:
> > Lynne Cooke, the Dia's curator, said the center
> > favored artists unfamiliar with the Internet. "Artists
> > who work with something where they don't know
> > the rules beforehand are more inclined to push the
> > envelope than those who are already very dextrous,"
> > she said.
> >
> >I wouldn't know where to begin punching holes in the logic behind that
> >statement. Maybe it's just a fancy way of saying "we don't really know
> >any net artists", but it felt like a big fat middle finger to all the
> >hard-working, mega-innovative, and mad-skilled net artists I know.
>
> truth. i think it's a way of saying, "we don't understand the net art
> that pushes the envelope so we'll give a commission to someone who is
> safe to make net art which seems to push the envelope if you don't
> understand the medium."
>
> anyway, my point was that at the time the Dia was founded they had a
> visionary who understood that there were some artists doing something
> new that needed major backing and gave it to them. I wonder what net,
> web new media artists could do with that sort of backing.
>
> do we have ideas of 'heroic' scale that need that sort of backing or
> do all we need is a t1 line, a phat server, a screaming workstation
> and lots of software licenses?
>
>
> >like some of the Dia commissions, but as a whole they're not really
> >envelope-pushing to anyone who gets around the web much.
> >
> >Also, it seems like many of these 'traditional-artists-cum-net-artists'
> >seem to end up having a bunch of assistants and volunteers build the
> >projects for them anyway. I don't have a problem with that per se (I
> >look forward to the day where I can hire better programmers to help
> >build my net art for me) but it makes Lynne Cooke's statement that much
> >more difficult to swallow.
> >
> >I don't think I know the 'rules of painting'. Maybe I should apply for a
> >painting commission and hire 'dextrous' young painters to build my
> >'envelope-pushing' painting ideas.
>
> i see a whole new career for you chris.
> --
> <twhid>
> http://www.mteww.com
> </twhid>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
Re: Re: [thingist] Rub Linda the right way and she might show you wonderland
Hi Joseph,
In relation to this, I thought that Jim Andrews had a strong point...
>I thought of Joseph's piece and the debate here as to its morality. And the
articles I read
>earlier in the evening by Robert Fisk, among others, describing the
slaughter of more civilians
>in Iraq.
Earlier this week on the Radio I heard the House of Commons, spluttering
away their ransid (isolationist) bile, complaining about Robert Fisk, like
many American corporate companies & hawk bunnies complain about Chomsky.
There is nothing more sensationlist than death. Whether one sees &
experiences it in real life (like I have & possibly others on this have to)
or when one dies one's self. If one of my (dead) close friends had been
photographed and used as art in such a way - I would not feel comfortable
with it.
You gotta understand what I mean by this - surely?
It does not matter if one is doing it for a career or not.
> I did not disturb their peace. You did. You fell prey to the same
seductions
> that marketing and propoganda uses to seduce the public. Your action
revealed
> the horrific pictures. Not mine.
Don't treat me like you do 'Karei' - he hates you - I don't...
my questions are as valid as your art, treat them with a similar respect.
I am open he is closed, big difference.
marc
> > I have a problem with this work -using dead/wounded people who have been
> > exploited by 'White corporate Neo-liberalism fascists; then turned into
Art.
> > It seems like a sensationalist parody.
>
> It would perhaps be sensationalist if I had career objectives in mind,
however
> I do not have a career as an artist nor do I benefit my business pursuits
with
> scandal. I started doing flower paintings, then set down to do some
flowers
> online and was motivated by a constant news barrage on NPR and the
different
> treatment of victims in American and Arab media. This resulted in an
evolution
> of the flowers.
>
> >
> > Why use these 'ripped up' people?
> >
>
> Artist like Delacroix (Shipwreck of Don Juan) and Goya (Disasters of War)
have
> used starkly realistic presentations of the victims of war and catastrophy
to
> present the horror of it. My intention was no different.
>
>
> > I believe that I understand Joseph's reasons (I think). With the
> > hopelessness
> > that he may feel in a world falling apart & run by 'backward' nihilists.
>
> These are not hopeless peices - I am still a idealist and a believer, and
aim
> these peices for reasons.
>
> >
> > Yet to use people whom have been killed/maimed by the Alliance's
military is
> > not emotionally stable or reflective/reevaluative.
>
> Nor are they intended as such. I am a non-violent warrior. I fight and aim
> weapons that do not cause death or physical harm. I fight only in defense,
but
> am ruthless when I do. I view the current adminstration and attitude of
the
> American public as the path to destruction, so I am fighting for myself
and
> progeny. I will use art or business or education, whatever is the best
tool at
> my disposal.
>
> >
> > Their souls have been stolen by Saddam, by Bush & Blair for their own
> > 'faustian' Gains - why continue to dig their pain up, drag it up even
more
> > for an audience to muse upon like CCN orgazm...
> >
> > I'm sorry Joesph -
> >
> > Let them rest in peace...
> >
>
> I did not disturb their peace. You did. You fell prey to the same
seductions
> that marketing and propoganda uses to seduce the public. Your action
revealed
> the horrific pictures. Not mine.
>
>
> joseph & donna
> www.electrichands.com
> joseph franklyn mcelroy
> corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com
>
> go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
> call me 646 279 2309
>
> SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
> CupcakeKleidoscope-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting "marc.garrett" <marc.garrett@furtherfield.org>:
>
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > I've been watching this debate & various things cropping up on here.
> >
> > The most useful suggestion was from Karei - regarding copying the list.
I
> > think that The rhizome database deserves the same treatment as hell.com;
now
> > that it is only in-house, ignoring everyday people - isolating them from
> > viewing Net Art, pretty disgusting really.
> >
> > I won't dwell too long - I've been ill the last few days, so will
comment
> > briefly regarding Joseph's War piece.
> >
> >
> > I have a problem with this work -using dead/wounded people who have been
> > exploited by 'White corporate Neo-liberalism fascists; then turned into
Art.
> > It seems like a sensationalist parody.
> >
> > Why use these 'ripped up' people?
> >
> > I believe that I understand Joseph's reasons (I think). With the
> > hopelessness
> > that he may feel in a world falling apart & run by 'backward' nihilists.
> >
> > Yet to use people whom have been killed/maimed by the Alliance's
military is
> > not emotionally stable or reflective/reevaluative.
> >
> > Their souls have been stolen by Saddam, by Bush & Blair for their own
> > 'faustian' Gains - why continue to dig their pain up, drag it up even
more
> > for an audience to muse upon like CCN orgazm...
> >
> > I'm sorry Joesph -
> >
> > Let them rest in peace...
> >
> > marc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Eryk
> > > I must admit I'm slightly mystified by your virulent
> > > reaction to Joseph's two recent pieces ( and you know
> > > that I'm not of the 'if it says it's art its
> > > brave/new/ and above criticism' brigade - I share for
> > > example some of your eloquently expressed concerns
> > > about the Mouchette pieces discussed on Rhizome last
> > > week ).
> > > Possibly we could argue about the execution of
> > > Joseph's pieces but I think their intent is in a
> > > pretty honourable line of Hogarth, Swift and more
> > > recently Grosz and John Heartfield.
> > > Do you think we should reject for example a "A Modest
> > > Proposal" (Swift's satirical essay in which he
> > > proposed that the starving Irish should eat their
> > > children) on grounds of taste? Or on the grounds that
> > > the Irish peasants would not understand/ be offended
> > > by the piece?
> > > Now maybe you know something about Joseph that I don't
> > > - I would certainly have some philosophical diferences
> > > with him, especially about the merits of a business
> > > oriented approach to things - but in my few dealings
> > > with him I've found him courteous, helpful and
> > > straightforward.
> > > So personally until something comes along to change
> > > my mind I'll accept the pieces on face value as
> > > shocking (yes) but nevertheless perfectly legitimate
> > > pieces of anti war art in a long satirical tradition.
> > > best
> > > michael
> > > --- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From Freud, "Civilization and its Discontents:"
> > > >
> > > > "He must be very strongly impressed by the fact that
> > > > some sources of
> > > > excitation, which he will later recognize as his own
> > > > bodily organs, can
> > > > provide him with sensation at any moment, whereas
> > > > other sources evade him
> > > > from time to time- among them what he desires most
> > > > of all, his mothers
> > > > breast- and only reappears as a result of his
> > > > screaming for help."
> > > >
> > > > Or as Joseph spake: "Yes, I was getting immune to
> > > > photos, so I created a
> > > > setting to make them shock me."
> > > >
> > > > Trivialization of mass murder and human suffering so
> > > > that Joseph McElroy can
> > > > have the experience of being "shocked" out of his
> > > > own apathy at the expense
> > > > of others- much in line with his "flower" piece, but
> > > > now he's added a
> > > > caricature of sexuality into the mix- but no,
> > > > really, it's all about making
> > > > "art" with a "message."
> > > >
> > > > I wonder if you would like to show this piece to
> > > > some
> > > > Iraqi/Afghan/Palestinians who are feeling personally
> > > > affected by thier own
> > > > lives, and you can explain to them how no, really,
> > > > you're not just trying to
> > > > get a higher jolt of electricity off of the
> > > > "entertaining" "shock value" of
> > > > thier dead bodies, no really, it's art, guys, it's
> > > > cool, it's cool, it's
> > > > art. Why aren't you getting a jolt of electricity
> > > > out of your own death? Why
> > > > do you have to get it from pissing on a pile of dead
> > > > bodies thousands of
> > > > miles away? But I have to say I really don't care to
> > > > hear an answer,
> > > > unfortunately I am not really willing to "go there"
> > > > with you.
> > > >
> > > > I'll admit, I have realized that a lot of my problem
> > > > with you is actually a
> > > > problem with me- that I don't trust other peoples
> > > > capacities, and I worry
> > > > that someone might mistake the spewings of your
> > > > nature for insight, and you
> > > > might send people "astray." But this is not really
> > > > my responsibility, and I
> > > > don't know why I mistook it for one. I don't know
> > > > why I listen to the hard
> > > > christian radio stations talk about the war in Iraq
> > > > when I know it will
> > > > infuriate me and distract me from driving. I don't
> > > > know why I give up on my
> > > > resolve and go on looking at your art. Its all like
> > > > insisting on burning my
> > > > hands to see if the stove is hot when its obviously
> > > > burning bright red. It's
> > > > not really anything philosophically gratifying, its
> > > > seriously just sadism,
> > > > and my misguided desire to "save people from
> > > > themselves."
> > > >
> > > > Emails like this are one more bullshit delivery
> > > > device for my I attempts to
> > > > "save the world"- the same impulse that makes me
> > > > leap to stop a rape in
> > > > progress is what makes me write an email to "warn
> > > > people" about your "art".
> > > > I am not going to do that anymore- the emails-
> > > > because after these pieces I
> > > > think it stands pretty blatantly clear, and nothing
> > > > I could say would prove
> > > > your retardation more than these pieces have
> > > > already. It's not my job to
> > > > protect people from you- it's yours.
> > > >
> > > > Works like this make me wonder why it is that I ever
> > > > worried people would
> > > > mistake you for having understanding or insight,
> > > > when in fact you prey on
> > > > the weak and the dead in order to get your own
> > > > kicks. I totally realize what
> > > > K meant when he called you a brute murderous ape-
> > > > maybe these pieces of
> > > > yours are you realizing that and surrendering to it,
> > > > I don't know. I don't
> > > > know what you have to do to get out of your zombie
> > > > trance of power and
> > > > aggression, but I feel like I should say that
> > > > "shocking yourself" out of
> > > > "apathy" isn't going to do it. Maybe it will, I
> > > > guess you would know better
> > > > than me, but its none of my buisiness.
> > > >
> > > > -e.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > > > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > > > To: <list@rhizome.org>
> > > > Cc: <FLUXLIST@scribble.com>;
> > > > <thingist@bbs.thing.net>;
> > > > <integer@www.god-emil.dk>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:56 AM
> > > > Subject: [thingist] Rub Linda the right way and she
> > > > might show you
> > > > wonderland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rub Linda the right way and she might show you
> > > > wonderland
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.electrichands.com/flowers/linda
> > > > >
> > > > > only for high bandwidth ...
> > > > >
> > > > > joseph & donna
> > > > > www.electrichands.com
> > > > > joseph franklyn mcelroy
> > > > > corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com
> > > > >
> > > > > SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE -
> > > > send email to
> > > > > CupcakeKleidoscope-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > t h i n g i s t
> > > > > message by "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > > > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > > > > archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> > > > > info: send email to majordomo@bbs.thing.net
> > > > > and write "info thingist" in the message body
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > +
> > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > > > out in the
> > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
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>
In relation to this, I thought that Jim Andrews had a strong point...
>I thought of Joseph's piece and the debate here as to its morality. And the
articles I read
>earlier in the evening by Robert Fisk, among others, describing the
slaughter of more civilians
>in Iraq.
Earlier this week on the Radio I heard the House of Commons, spluttering
away their ransid (isolationist) bile, complaining about Robert Fisk, like
many American corporate companies & hawk bunnies complain about Chomsky.
There is nothing more sensationlist than death. Whether one sees &
experiences it in real life (like I have & possibly others on this have to)
or when one dies one's self. If one of my (dead) close friends had been
photographed and used as art in such a way - I would not feel comfortable
with it.
You gotta understand what I mean by this - surely?
It does not matter if one is doing it for a career or not.
> I did not disturb their peace. You did. You fell prey to the same
seductions
> that marketing and propoganda uses to seduce the public. Your action
revealed
> the horrific pictures. Not mine.
Don't treat me like you do 'Karei' - he hates you - I don't...
my questions are as valid as your art, treat them with a similar respect.
I am open he is closed, big difference.
marc
> > I have a problem with this work -using dead/wounded people who have been
> > exploited by 'White corporate Neo-liberalism fascists; then turned into
Art.
> > It seems like a sensationalist parody.
>
> It would perhaps be sensationalist if I had career objectives in mind,
however
> I do not have a career as an artist nor do I benefit my business pursuits
with
> scandal. I started doing flower paintings, then set down to do some
flowers
> online and was motivated by a constant news barrage on NPR and the
different
> treatment of victims in American and Arab media. This resulted in an
evolution
> of the flowers.
>
> >
> > Why use these 'ripped up' people?
> >
>
> Artist like Delacroix (Shipwreck of Don Juan) and Goya (Disasters of War)
have
> used starkly realistic presentations of the victims of war and catastrophy
to
> present the horror of it. My intention was no different.
>
>
> > I believe that I understand Joseph's reasons (I think). With the
> > hopelessness
> > that he may feel in a world falling apart & run by 'backward' nihilists.
>
> These are not hopeless peices - I am still a idealist and a believer, and
aim
> these peices for reasons.
>
> >
> > Yet to use people whom have been killed/maimed by the Alliance's
military is
> > not emotionally stable or reflective/reevaluative.
>
> Nor are they intended as such. I am a non-violent warrior. I fight and aim
> weapons that do not cause death or physical harm. I fight only in defense,
but
> am ruthless when I do. I view the current adminstration and attitude of
the
> American public as the path to destruction, so I am fighting for myself
and
> progeny. I will use art or business or education, whatever is the best
tool at
> my disposal.
>
> >
> > Their souls have been stolen by Saddam, by Bush & Blair for their own
> > 'faustian' Gains - why continue to dig their pain up, drag it up even
more
> > for an audience to muse upon like CCN orgazm...
> >
> > I'm sorry Joesph -
> >
> > Let them rest in peace...
> >
>
> I did not disturb their peace. You did. You fell prey to the same
seductions
> that marketing and propoganda uses to seduce the public. Your action
revealed
> the horrific pictures. Not mine.
>
>
> joseph & donna
> www.electrichands.com
> joseph franklyn mcelroy
> corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com
>
> go shopping -> http://www.electrichands.com/shopindex.htm
> call me 646 279 2309
>
> SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE - send email to
> CupcakeKleidoscope-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
> Quoting "marc.garrett" <marc.garrett@furtherfield.org>:
>
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > I've been watching this debate & various things cropping up on here.
> >
> > The most useful suggestion was from Karei - regarding copying the list.
I
> > think that The rhizome database deserves the same treatment as hell.com;
now
> > that it is only in-house, ignoring everyday people - isolating them from
> > viewing Net Art, pretty disgusting really.
> >
> > I won't dwell too long - I've been ill the last few days, so will
comment
> > briefly regarding Joseph's War piece.
> >
> >
> > I have a problem with this work -using dead/wounded people who have been
> > exploited by 'White corporate Neo-liberalism fascists; then turned into
Art.
> > It seems like a sensationalist parody.
> >
> > Why use these 'ripped up' people?
> >
> > I believe that I understand Joseph's reasons (I think). With the
> > hopelessness
> > that he may feel in a world falling apart & run by 'backward' nihilists.
> >
> > Yet to use people whom have been killed/maimed by the Alliance's
military is
> > not emotionally stable or reflective/reevaluative.
> >
> > Their souls have been stolen by Saddam, by Bush & Blair for their own
> > 'faustian' Gains - why continue to dig their pain up, drag it up even
more
> > for an audience to muse upon like CCN orgazm...
> >
> > I'm sorry Joesph -
> >
> > Let them rest in peace...
> >
> > marc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Eryk
> > > I must admit I'm slightly mystified by your virulent
> > > reaction to Joseph's two recent pieces ( and you know
> > > that I'm not of the 'if it says it's art its
> > > brave/new/ and above criticism' brigade - I share for
> > > example some of your eloquently expressed concerns
> > > about the Mouchette pieces discussed on Rhizome last
> > > week ).
> > > Possibly we could argue about the execution of
> > > Joseph's pieces but I think their intent is in a
> > > pretty honourable line of Hogarth, Swift and more
> > > recently Grosz and John Heartfield.
> > > Do you think we should reject for example a "A Modest
> > > Proposal" (Swift's satirical essay in which he
> > > proposed that the starving Irish should eat their
> > > children) on grounds of taste? Or on the grounds that
> > > the Irish peasants would not understand/ be offended
> > > by the piece?
> > > Now maybe you know something about Joseph that I don't
> > > - I would certainly have some philosophical diferences
> > > with him, especially about the merits of a business
> > > oriented approach to things - but in my few dealings
> > > with him I've found him courteous, helpful and
> > > straightforward.
> > > So personally until something comes along to change
> > > my mind I'll accept the pieces on face value as
> > > shocking (yes) but nevertheless perfectly legitimate
> > > pieces of anti war art in a long satirical tradition.
> > > best
> > > michael
> > > --- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From Freud, "Civilization and its Discontents:"
> > > >
> > > > "He must be very strongly impressed by the fact that
> > > > some sources of
> > > > excitation, which he will later recognize as his own
> > > > bodily organs, can
> > > > provide him with sensation at any moment, whereas
> > > > other sources evade him
> > > > from time to time- among them what he desires most
> > > > of all, his mothers
> > > > breast- and only reappears as a result of his
> > > > screaming for help."
> > > >
> > > > Or as Joseph spake: "Yes, I was getting immune to
> > > > photos, so I created a
> > > > setting to make them shock me."
> > > >
> > > > Trivialization of mass murder and human suffering so
> > > > that Joseph McElroy can
> > > > have the experience of being "shocked" out of his
> > > > own apathy at the expense
> > > > of others- much in line with his "flower" piece, but
> > > > now he's added a
> > > > caricature of sexuality into the mix- but no,
> > > > really, it's all about making
> > > > "art" with a "message."
> > > >
> > > > I wonder if you would like to show this piece to
> > > > some
> > > > Iraqi/Afghan/Palestinians who are feeling personally
> > > > affected by thier own
> > > > lives, and you can explain to them how no, really,
> > > > you're not just trying to
> > > > get a higher jolt of electricity off of the
> > > > "entertaining" "shock value" of
> > > > thier dead bodies, no really, it's art, guys, it's
> > > > cool, it's cool, it's
> > > > art. Why aren't you getting a jolt of electricity
> > > > out of your own death? Why
> > > > do you have to get it from pissing on a pile of dead
> > > > bodies thousands of
> > > > miles away? But I have to say I really don't care to
> > > > hear an answer,
> > > > unfortunately I am not really willing to "go there"
> > > > with you.
> > > >
> > > > I'll admit, I have realized that a lot of my problem
> > > > with you is actually a
> > > > problem with me- that I don't trust other peoples
> > > > capacities, and I worry
> > > > that someone might mistake the spewings of your
> > > > nature for insight, and you
> > > > might send people "astray." But this is not really
> > > > my responsibility, and I
> > > > don't know why I mistook it for one. I don't know
> > > > why I listen to the hard
> > > > christian radio stations talk about the war in Iraq
> > > > when I know it will
> > > > infuriate me and distract me from driving. I don't
> > > > know why I give up on my
> > > > resolve and go on looking at your art. Its all like
> > > > insisting on burning my
> > > > hands to see if the stove is hot when its obviously
> > > > burning bright red. It's
> > > > not really anything philosophically gratifying, its
> > > > seriously just sadism,
> > > > and my misguided desire to "save people from
> > > > themselves."
> > > >
> > > > Emails like this are one more bullshit delivery
> > > > device for my I attempts to
> > > > "save the world"- the same impulse that makes me
> > > > leap to stop a rape in
> > > > progress is what makes me write an email to "warn
> > > > people" about your "art".
> > > > I am not going to do that anymore- the emails-
> > > > because after these pieces I
> > > > think it stands pretty blatantly clear, and nothing
> > > > I could say would prove
> > > > your retardation more than these pieces have
> > > > already. It's not my job to
> > > > protect people from you- it's yours.
> > > >
> > > > Works like this make me wonder why it is that I ever
> > > > worried people would
> > > > mistake you for having understanding or insight,
> > > > when in fact you prey on
> > > > the weak and the dead in order to get your own
> > > > kicks. I totally realize what
> > > > K meant when he called you a brute murderous ape-
> > > > maybe these pieces of
> > > > yours are you realizing that and surrendering to it,
> > > > I don't know. I don't
> > > > know what you have to do to get out of your zombie
> > > > trance of power and
> > > > aggression, but I feel like I should say that
> > > > "shocking yourself" out of
> > > > "apathy" isn't going to do it. Maybe it will, I
> > > > guess you would know better
> > > > than me, but its none of my buisiness.
> > > >
> > > > -e.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > > > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > > > To: <list@rhizome.org>
> > > > Cc: <FLUXLIST@scribble.com>;
> > > > <thingist@bbs.thing.net>;
> > > > <integer@www.god-emil.dk>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:56 AM
> > > > Subject: [thingist] Rub Linda the right way and she
> > > > might show you
> > > > wonderland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rub Linda the right way and she might show you
> > > > wonderland
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.electrichands.com/flowers/linda
> > > > >
> > > > > only for high bandwidth ...
> > > > >
> > > > > joseph & donna
> > > > > www.electrichands.com
> > > > > joseph franklyn mcelroy
> > > > > corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com
> > > > >
> > > > > SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE -
> > > > send email to
> > > > > CupcakeKleidoscope-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > t h i n g i s t
> > > > > message by "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > > > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > > > > archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> > > > > info: send email to majordomo@bbs.thing.net
> > > > > and write "info thingist" in the message body
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > > > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > > > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > > > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > > > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > > > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > > > +
> > > > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > > > out in the
> > > > Membership Agreement available online at
> > > http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that
of
> > the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority in
any
> > way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email. We have
taken
> > the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise that you carry
out
> > your own virus attachment to this message. Internet email that you
observe
> > this lack is not a secure communication medium, and we advise of
security
> > when emailing us. District Postmaster.
> > http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
> > > http://tax.yahoo.com
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http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
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> > > Membership Agreement available online at
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
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> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
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> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
Re: Re: [thingist] Rub Linda the right way and she might show you wonderland
Hi Michael,
I've been watching this debate & various things cropping up on here.
The most useful suggestion was from Karei - regarding copying the list. I
think that The rhizome database deserves the same treatment as hell.com; now
that it is only in-house, ignoring everyday people - isolating them from
viewing Net Art, pretty disgusting really.
I won't dwell too long - I've been ill the last few days, so will comment
briefly regarding Joseph's War piece.
I have a problem with this work -using dead/wounded people who have been
exploited by 'White corporate Neo-liberalism fascists; then turned into Art.
It seems like a sensationalist parody.
Why use these 'ripped up' people?
I believe that I understand Joseph's reasons (I think). With the
hopelessness
that he may feel in a world falling apart & run by 'backward' nihilists.
Yet to use people whom have been killed/maimed by the Alliance's military is
not emotionally stable or reflective/reevaluative.
Their souls have been stolen by Saddam, by Bush & Blair for their own
'faustian' Gains - why continue to dig their pain up, drag it up even more
for an audience to muse upon like CCN orgazm...
I'm sorry Joesph -
Let them rest in peace...
marc
> Eryk
> I must admit I'm slightly mystified by your virulent
> reaction to Joseph's two recent pieces ( and you know
> that I'm not of the 'if it says it's art its
> brave/new/ and above criticism' brigade - I share for
> example some of your eloquently expressed concerns
> about the Mouchette pieces discussed on Rhizome last
> week ).
> Possibly we could argue about the execution of
> Joseph's pieces but I think their intent is in a
> pretty honourable line of Hogarth, Swift and more
> recently Grosz and John Heartfield.
> Do you think we should reject for example a "A Modest
> Proposal" (Swift's satirical essay in which he
> proposed that the starving Irish should eat their
> children) on grounds of taste? Or on the grounds that
> the Irish peasants would not understand/ be offended
> by the piece?
> Now maybe you know something about Joseph that I don't
> - I would certainly have some philosophical diferences
> with him, especially about the merits of a business
> oriented approach to things - but in my few dealings
> with him I've found him courteous, helpful and
> straightforward.
> So personally until something comes along to change
> my mind I'll accept the pieces on face value as
> shocking (yes) but nevertheless perfectly legitimate
> pieces of anti war art in a long satirical tradition.
> best
> michael
> --- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > From Freud, "Civilization and its Discontents:"
> >
> > "He must be very strongly impressed by the fact that
> > some sources of
> > excitation, which he will later recognize as his own
> > bodily organs, can
> > provide him with sensation at any moment, whereas
> > other sources evade him
> > from time to time- among them what he desires most
> > of all, his mothers
> > breast- and only reappears as a result of his
> > screaming for help."
> >
> > Or as Joseph spake: "Yes, I was getting immune to
> > photos, so I created a
> > setting to make them shock me."
> >
> > Trivialization of mass murder and human suffering so
> > that Joseph McElroy can
> > have the experience of being "shocked" out of his
> > own apathy at the expense
> > of others- much in line with his "flower" piece, but
> > now he's added a
> > caricature of sexuality into the mix- but no,
> > really, it's all about making
> > "art" with a "message."
> >
> > I wonder if you would like to show this piece to
> > some
> > Iraqi/Afghan/Palestinians who are feeling personally
> > affected by thier own
> > lives, and you can explain to them how no, really,
> > you're not just trying to
> > get a higher jolt of electricity off of the
> > "entertaining" "shock value" of
> > thier dead bodies, no really, it's art, guys, it's
> > cool, it's cool, it's
> > art. Why aren't you getting a jolt of electricity
> > out of your own death? Why
> > do you have to get it from pissing on a pile of dead
> > bodies thousands of
> > miles away? But I have to say I really don't care to
> > hear an answer,
> > unfortunately I am not really willing to "go there"
> > with you.
> >
> > I'll admit, I have realized that a lot of my problem
> > with you is actually a
> > problem with me- that I don't trust other peoples
> > capacities, and I worry
> > that someone might mistake the spewings of your
> > nature for insight, and you
> > might send people "astray." But this is not really
> > my responsibility, and I
> > don't know why I mistook it for one. I don't know
> > why I listen to the hard
> > christian radio stations talk about the war in Iraq
> > when I know it will
> > infuriate me and distract me from driving. I don't
> > know why I give up on my
> > resolve and go on looking at your art. Its all like
> > insisting on burning my
> > hands to see if the stove is hot when its obviously
> > burning bright red. It's
> > not really anything philosophically gratifying, its
> > seriously just sadism,
> > and my misguided desire to "save people from
> > themselves."
> >
> > Emails like this are one more bullshit delivery
> > device for my I attempts to
> > "save the world"- the same impulse that makes me
> > leap to stop a rape in
> > progress is what makes me write an email to "warn
> > people" about your "art".
> > I am not going to do that anymore- the emails-
> > because after these pieces I
> > think it stands pretty blatantly clear, and nothing
> > I could say would prove
> > your retardation more than these pieces have
> > already. It's not my job to
> > protect people from you- it's yours.
> >
> > Works like this make me wonder why it is that I ever
> > worried people would
> > mistake you for having understanding or insight,
> > when in fact you prey on
> > the weak and the dead in order to get your own
> > kicks. I totally realize what
> > K meant when he called you a brute murderous ape-
> > maybe these pieces of
> > yours are you realizing that and surrendering to it,
> > I don't know. I don't
> > know what you have to do to get out of your zombie
> > trance of power and
> > aggression, but I feel like I should say that
> > "shocking yourself" out of
> > "apathy" isn't going to do it. Maybe it will, I
> > guess you would know better
> > than me, but its none of my buisiness.
> >
> > -e.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > To: <list@rhizome.org>
> > Cc: <FLUXLIST@scribble.com>;
> > <thingist@bbs.thing.net>;
> > <integer@www.god-emil.dk>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:56 AM
> > Subject: [thingist] Rub Linda the right way and she
> > might show you
> > wonderland
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Rub Linda the right way and she might show you
> > wonderland
> > >
> > > http://www.electrichands.com/flowers/linda
> > >
> > > only for high bandwidth ...
> > >
> > > joseph & donna
> > > www.electrichands.com
> > > joseph franklyn mcelroy
> > > corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com
> > >
> > > SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE -
> > send email to
> > > CupcakeKleidoscope-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > t h i n g i s t
> > > message by "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > > archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> > > info: send email to majordomo@bbs.thing.net
> > > and write "info thingist" in the message body
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> >
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
> =====
> *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that of
the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority in any
way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email. We have taken
the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise that you carry out
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>
> __________________________________________________
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> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
I've been watching this debate & various things cropping up on here.
The most useful suggestion was from Karei - regarding copying the list. I
think that The rhizome database deserves the same treatment as hell.com; now
that it is only in-house, ignoring everyday people - isolating them from
viewing Net Art, pretty disgusting really.
I won't dwell too long - I've been ill the last few days, so will comment
briefly regarding Joseph's War piece.
I have a problem with this work -using dead/wounded people who have been
exploited by 'White corporate Neo-liberalism fascists; then turned into Art.
It seems like a sensationalist parody.
Why use these 'ripped up' people?
I believe that I understand Joseph's reasons (I think). With the
hopelessness
that he may feel in a world falling apart & run by 'backward' nihilists.
Yet to use people whom have been killed/maimed by the Alliance's military is
not emotionally stable or reflective/reevaluative.
Their souls have been stolen by Saddam, by Bush & Blair for their own
'faustian' Gains - why continue to dig their pain up, drag it up even more
for an audience to muse upon like CCN orgazm...
I'm sorry Joesph -
Let them rest in peace...
marc
> Eryk
> I must admit I'm slightly mystified by your virulent
> reaction to Joseph's two recent pieces ( and you know
> that I'm not of the 'if it says it's art its
> brave/new/ and above criticism' brigade - I share for
> example some of your eloquently expressed concerns
> about the Mouchette pieces discussed on Rhizome last
> week ).
> Possibly we could argue about the execution of
> Joseph's pieces but I think their intent is in a
> pretty honourable line of Hogarth, Swift and more
> recently Grosz and John Heartfield.
> Do you think we should reject for example a "A Modest
> Proposal" (Swift's satirical essay in which he
> proposed that the starving Irish should eat their
> children) on grounds of taste? Or on the grounds that
> the Irish peasants would not understand/ be offended
> by the piece?
> Now maybe you know something about Joseph that I don't
> - I would certainly have some philosophical diferences
> with him, especially about the merits of a business
> oriented approach to things - but in my few dealings
> with him I've found him courteous, helpful and
> straightforward.
> So personally until something comes along to change
> my mind I'll accept the pieces on face value as
> shocking (yes) but nevertheless perfectly legitimate
> pieces of anti war art in a long satirical tradition.
> best
> michael
> --- Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > From Freud, "Civilization and its Discontents:"
> >
> > "He must be very strongly impressed by the fact that
> > some sources of
> > excitation, which he will later recognize as his own
> > bodily organs, can
> > provide him with sensation at any moment, whereas
> > other sources evade him
> > from time to time- among them what he desires most
> > of all, his mothers
> > breast- and only reappears as a result of his
> > screaming for help."
> >
> > Or as Joseph spake: "Yes, I was getting immune to
> > photos, so I created a
> > setting to make them shock me."
> >
> > Trivialization of mass murder and human suffering so
> > that Joseph McElroy can
> > have the experience of being "shocked" out of his
> > own apathy at the expense
> > of others- much in line with his "flower" piece, but
> > now he's added a
> > caricature of sexuality into the mix- but no,
> > really, it's all about making
> > "art" with a "message."
> >
> > I wonder if you would like to show this piece to
> > some
> > Iraqi/Afghan/Palestinians who are feeling personally
> > affected by thier own
> > lives, and you can explain to them how no, really,
> > you're not just trying to
> > get a higher jolt of electricity off of the
> > "entertaining" "shock value" of
> > thier dead bodies, no really, it's art, guys, it's
> > cool, it's cool, it's
> > art. Why aren't you getting a jolt of electricity
> > out of your own death? Why
> > do you have to get it from pissing on a pile of dead
> > bodies thousands of
> > miles away? But I have to say I really don't care to
> > hear an answer,
> > unfortunately I am not really willing to "go there"
> > with you.
> >
> > I'll admit, I have realized that a lot of my problem
> > with you is actually a
> > problem with me- that I don't trust other peoples
> > capacities, and I worry
> > that someone might mistake the spewings of your
> > nature for insight, and you
> > might send people "astray." But this is not really
> > my responsibility, and I
> > don't know why I mistook it for one. I don't know
> > why I listen to the hard
> > christian radio stations talk about the war in Iraq
> > when I know it will
> > infuriate me and distract me from driving. I don't
> > know why I give up on my
> > resolve and go on looking at your art. Its all like
> > insisting on burning my
> > hands to see if the stove is hot when its obviously
> > burning bright red. It's
> > not really anything philosophically gratifying, its
> > seriously just sadism,
> > and my misguided desire to "save people from
> > themselves."
> >
> > Emails like this are one more bullshit delivery
> > device for my I attempts to
> > "save the world"- the same impulse that makes me
> > leap to stop a rape in
> > progress is what makes me write an email to "warn
> > people" about your "art".
> > I am not going to do that anymore- the emails-
> > because after these pieces I
> > think it stands pretty blatantly clear, and nothing
> > I could say would prove
> > your retardation more than these pieces have
> > already. It's not my job to
> > protect people from you- it's yours.
> >
> > Works like this make me wonder why it is that I ever
> > worried people would
> > mistake you for having understanding or insight,
> > when in fact you prey on
> > the weak and the dead in order to get your own
> > kicks. I totally realize what
> > K meant when he called you a brute murderous ape-
> > maybe these pieces of
> > yours are you realizing that and surrendering to it,
> > I don't know. I don't
> > know what you have to do to get out of your zombie
> > trance of power and
> > aggression, but I feel like I should say that
> > "shocking yourself" out of
> > "apathy" isn't going to do it. Maybe it will, I
> > guess you would know better
> > than me, but its none of my buisiness.
> >
> > -e.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > To: <list@rhizome.org>
> > Cc: <FLUXLIST@scribble.com>;
> > <thingist@bbs.thing.net>;
> > <integer@www.god-emil.dk>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 12:56 AM
> > Subject: [thingist] Rub Linda the right way and she
> > might show you
> > wonderland
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Rub Linda the right way and she might show you
> > wonderland
> > >
> > > http://www.electrichands.com/flowers/linda
> > >
> > > only for high bandwidth ...
> > >
> > > joseph & donna
> > > www.electrichands.com
> > > joseph franklyn mcelroy
> > > corporate performance artist www.corporatepa.com
> > >
> > > SUBSCRIBE TO OUR NEWSLETTER CUPCAKEKALEIDOSCOPE -
> > send email to
> > > CupcakeKleidoscope-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > t h i n g i s t
> > > message by "joseph (yes=no & yes<>no) "
> > <joseph@electrichands.com>
> > > archive at http://bbs.thing.net
> > > info: send email to majordomo@bbs.thing.net
> > > and write "info thingist" in the message body
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> >
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> > http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set
> > out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>
>
> =====
> *DISCLAIMER:This email any advice it contains is for the use is that of
the sender and does not bind the precautions to minimise authority in any
way. If you copy or distribute this by software viruses email. We have taken
the risk of transmitting software viruses, but we advise that you carry out
your own virus attachment to this message. Internet email that you observe
this lack is not a secure communication medium, and we advise of security
when emailing us. District Postmaster.
http://www.somedancersandmusicians.com/ *
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
> http://tax.yahoo.com
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>