ARTBASE (1)
PORTFOLIO (1)
BIO
The McElroys are a husband and wife collaborative artist, technology, and business team who bring significant artistic, technology and community development skills to Corporate Performance Artists. Joseph, is a graduate of Computer Science from Duke University and a former team leader at IBM. He has been a CEO of several companies, and has been responsible for raising $2 million to fund a startup company called EveryDayPrint.com, which while part of the dot-com boom and bust, he managed to bring to profitability and which still survives to this day.
Donna was an operations manager and PR specialist in the firms they have started together. She has recently been credited by several business leaders in the Bronx as being "top spokesperson for the Bronx." She is active in many community development projects, such as participating on the Board of the Bruckner Arts and Antique District, and working to promote many Bronx activities through an online newsletter called Cupcake Kaleidoscope.
Joseph was the leader of the Open Source Sig for the New York Software Industry Association. And was track co-chair for Open Source at the 2001 New York Software Industry Summit. He was on the advisory board for PostgreSql, Inc - the leading Open Source Database and has had articles published by Lutris Technologies and Open Magazine on Open Source business models and technology solutions. He is a database expert with extensive Fortune 500 experience. Among other awards, he won an IBM Division Award for Technical Excellence.
From magazine "Open" issue September 2001 - "The McElroys kick open the doors of old business models and capitalize on what they believe." The McElroys have achieved re-known as Open Source visionaries with interviews by Interactive Week, Infoworld, Fortune Technology, Open magazine, and others. Joseph and Donna make no claims of divine insight, but in review by Lewis Lacock, it is said, "that this dynamic duo of art are the closest things we have to true shamans today". They are doing their best to pursue the knowledge to support such claims someday.
HIGHLIGHTS
* Achieved reputation as Open Source visionarys with interviews by Interactive Week, Infoworld, Fortune Technology, Open magazine among others.
* National Columnist on Money Matters for Gather.com.
* Judge for the Advanced Technical Categories of the Emmys.
* Successfully raised $2 million funding for startup.
* Successfully built and sold two technology businesses.
* First Entry into the Multimedia wing of the Museum of Computer Art.
* Artwork collected by the Library at Cornell University.
* Artwork in the collection of Rhizome.org.
* Developed first ever Exhibition Catalog completely on CD Rom. Done for Alternative Museum. Reviewed by New York Times.
* Selected to attend first ever Summer Institute for Performance Art at The Kitchen in NYC.
* IBM Division Award for Technical Excellence.
* Various academic, mathematic and scholarship awards. Attended Duke University on a full scholarship in mathematics.
* Poetry published in various journals. Art exhibited in museum shows.
* Certificate of Artistic Excellence from Congressman Jose Serrano.
* Recognized by Bronx Borough President Aldofo Carrion for contributions to the community.
Donna was an operations manager and PR specialist in the firms they have started together. She has recently been credited by several business leaders in the Bronx as being "top spokesperson for the Bronx." She is active in many community development projects, such as participating on the Board of the Bruckner Arts and Antique District, and working to promote many Bronx activities through an online newsletter called Cupcake Kaleidoscope.
Joseph was the leader of the Open Source Sig for the New York Software Industry Association. And was track co-chair for Open Source at the 2001 New York Software Industry Summit. He was on the advisory board for PostgreSql, Inc - the leading Open Source Database and has had articles published by Lutris Technologies and Open Magazine on Open Source business models and technology solutions. He is a database expert with extensive Fortune 500 experience. Among other awards, he won an IBM Division Award for Technical Excellence.
From magazine "Open" issue September 2001 - "The McElroys kick open the doors of old business models and capitalize on what they believe." The McElroys have achieved re-known as Open Source visionaries with interviews by Interactive Week, Infoworld, Fortune Technology, Open magazine, and others. Joseph and Donna make no claims of divine insight, but in review by Lewis Lacock, it is said, "that this dynamic duo of art are the closest things we have to true shamans today". They are doing their best to pursue the knowledge to support such claims someday.
HIGHLIGHTS
* Achieved reputation as Open Source visionarys with interviews by Interactive Week, Infoworld, Fortune Technology, Open magazine among others.
* National Columnist on Money Matters for Gather.com.
* Judge for the Advanced Technical Categories of the Emmys.
* Successfully raised $2 million funding for startup.
* Successfully built and sold two technology businesses.
* First Entry into the Multimedia wing of the Museum of Computer Art.
* Artwork collected by the Library at Cornell University.
* Artwork in the collection of Rhizome.org.
* Developed first ever Exhibition Catalog completely on CD Rom. Done for Alternative Museum. Reviewed by New York Times.
* Selected to attend first ever Summer Institute for Performance Art at The Kitchen in NYC.
* IBM Division Award for Technical Excellence.
* Various academic, mathematic and scholarship awards. Attended Duke University on a full scholarship in mathematics.
* Poetry published in various journals. Art exhibited in museum shows.
* Certificate of Artistic Excellence from Congressman Jose Serrano.
* Recognized by Bronx Borough President Aldofo Carrion for contributions to the community.
Re: RE: Manufacturing Dissent
Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <death@zaphod.terminal.org>:
>
> Imagination is impotent abuse of various faculties.
For what purpose do you use imagination?
Joseph
>
> Imagination is impotent abuse of various faculties.
For what purpose do you use imagination?
Joseph
Re: Rhizome Raw Religions of the World Survey 2002
Quoting "-IID42 Kandinskij @27+" <death@zaphod.terminal.org>:
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 joseph@electrichands.com wrote:
>
> > I got Eryk to quit the list and you didn't. Na Na
>
>
> Your delusions have no end, do they?
You are deluded by thinking that I am deluded. To believe that a) Eryk quit or
b) I believe I did it, is a great delusion indeed. Like I said before, you and
Eryk just don't know how to laugh.
(Yes I know, you know how to LAUGH - a true LAUGH, a LAUGH that I am incapable
of understanding because I am a myopic, hypocritic, impotent, knee-jerking,
psychotic, murderous, brutal, idiot, farmer ape speaking drivel and parroting
words I don't comprehend)
Yes sir, I just crawl up your spine and make you shiver, don't I?
Joseph
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 joseph@electrichands.com wrote:
>
> > I got Eryk to quit the list and you didn't. Na Na
>
>
> Your delusions have no end, do they?
You are deluded by thinking that I am deluded. To believe that a) Eryk quit or
b) I believe I did it, is a great delusion indeed. Like I said before, you and
Eryk just don't know how to laugh.
(Yes I know, you know how to LAUGH - a true LAUGH, a LAUGH that I am incapable
of understanding because I am a myopic, hypocritic, impotent, knee-jerking,
psychotic, murderous, brutal, idiot, farmer ape speaking drivel and parroting
words I don't comprehend)
Yes sir, I just crawl up your spine and make you shiver, don't I?
Joseph
Re: big brother is coming
Quoting David Goldschmidt <david@personify.tv>:
> very true joseph. i know that [corporations] are doing the "right" thing
> and i've witnessed the same passion within the corporate culture.
[corporations] are a lot of people - the point is that certain people in these
corporations actually think they are doing the "right" thing in terms of good
for society, etc - it is also a happy coincidence that it coincides with the
monetary needs of their corporation and by extension their career status.
Many, many people leave school and enter the corporate world where they live an
incredibly sheltered and shallow existence - thus they have a very limited
world view. They can easily convince themselves that what is good for the
corporation is also good for the world and what threatens the corporation is
bad and even evil. Thus direct confrontation produces a war. Instead of this,
perhaps other ways???
For example, from my previous existence as a CEO, I still have control of the
Open Source Sig for the New York Software Industry Associate - a pretty
powerful corporate dog. I have started using this Sig as an educational tool
to corporate employees about such issues as fair use, copyright etc.
By chance, does your essay have applications to the software industry in
regards to open source, copyright, fair use, etc? I am looking for a presenter
and topic for the December Sig.
>
> in my opinion ... in my personal agenda ... in my propaganda ... i believe
> that the right to free speech is significantly more important than
> protecting copyrights for 70 plus years!!!!!!!! fuck disney!!!!!
I am personally for free distribution of knowledge, not so much free expression
- however I do believe that it is very possible (likely?) that corporations
will take this to far (via Commerce Laws) for the average person to express
themselves freely.
>
> i'm nearly finished with a newmedia essay on "human hell". i hope you will
> watch it when its done.
Sure, I look forward to it.
>
> images are language ... not property
> images are a kind of alphabet ... not property
the knowledge/message of images are not property
the expression of images are property
joseph
> very true joseph. i know that [corporations] are doing the "right" thing
> and i've witnessed the same passion within the corporate culture.
[corporations] are a lot of people - the point is that certain people in these
corporations actually think they are doing the "right" thing in terms of good
for society, etc - it is also a happy coincidence that it coincides with the
monetary needs of their corporation and by extension their career status.
Many, many people leave school and enter the corporate world where they live an
incredibly sheltered and shallow existence - thus they have a very limited
world view. They can easily convince themselves that what is good for the
corporation is also good for the world and what threatens the corporation is
bad and even evil. Thus direct confrontation produces a war. Instead of this,
perhaps other ways???
For example, from my previous existence as a CEO, I still have control of the
Open Source Sig for the New York Software Industry Associate - a pretty
powerful corporate dog. I have started using this Sig as an educational tool
to corporate employees about such issues as fair use, copyright etc.
By chance, does your essay have applications to the software industry in
regards to open source, copyright, fair use, etc? I am looking for a presenter
and topic for the December Sig.
>
> in my opinion ... in my personal agenda ... in my propaganda ... i believe
> that the right to free speech is significantly more important than
> protecting copyrights for 70 plus years!!!!!!!! fuck disney!!!!!
I am personally for free distribution of knowledge, not so much free expression
- however I do believe that it is very possible (likely?) that corporations
will take this to far (via Commerce Laws) for the average person to express
themselves freely.
>
> i'm nearly finished with a newmedia essay on "human hell". i hope you will
> watch it when its done.
Sure, I look forward to it.
>
> images are language ... not property
> images are a kind of alphabet ... not property
the knowledge/message of images are not property
the expression of images are property
joseph
Re: Rock'n'Rhizome
Community based fund raising projects is a pretty good idea. Move
responsibility onto community for maintaining it.
joseph
Quoting Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com>:
>
> I thought of this too, I think it could be a lot of fun to do, besides.
> We could do it through something like mp3.com to keep overhead low; some
> people could donate net.art-based cd covers, we could sell a few
> different versions of the cd. It could bring in a couple of bucks and
> wouldn't cost anything. I could talk to a couple of people, too, who
> could contribute stuff. It could be a nice compilation.
>
> It could also be pretty terrible, but we never know unless we try!
>
> -e.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Max Herman wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD, all proceeds to Rhizome,
> > I'd donate a song'r two.
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
> >> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
> >> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
> >> CC: list@rhizome.org
> >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
> >> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
> >>
> >> Its time to talk about industry mergers. Forget the membership fees,
> >> very few
> >> will pay. If you are about to fold, either fold, or start a capital
> >> campaign
> >> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
> >>
> >> joseph
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
> >>
> >> > Hi Rhizomers:
> >> >
> >> > I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw about Rhizome's
> >> financial
> >> > situation and a possible solution. This email is rather long, but I'd
> >> > appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it through, give it some
> >> > thought, and let me know what you think.
> >> >
> >> > First, some background information. It will cost about $400,000 to
> >> operate
> >> > Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it: $6,000 on
> >> administrative
> >> > fees (mostly processing credit card gifts); $122,000 on operating
> >> expenses
> >> > (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies, etc.); $177,000 on payroll
> >> > costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
> >> > professional fees (writers, commissions, consultants, etc.). These
> >> numbers
> >> > may seem high to some of you, but we actually run a very lean,
> >> efficient
> >> > operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run a nonprofit
> >> organization
> >> > that offers as many programs to as many people as we do.
> >> >
> >> > In the past, most of our revenue has come from foundations, but
> >> foundation
> >> > support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up the difference
> >> through earned
> >> > income from web hosting and online education, but those services are
> >> > getting off to a slow start. We have also, as you surely know,
> >> tried asking
> >> > for voluntary contributions. But so far this year only about 1% of our
> >> > 19,000 members have made gifts.
> >> >
> >> > The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its quarterly meeting last
> >> Friday.
> >> > The main topic was how to solve our financial problems. I proposed
> >> putting
> >> > the organization into hibernation mode. This would entail shutting
> >> down the
> >> > office, laying off the staff and discontinuing most of our
> >> programs. We
> >> > would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers to continue to publish
> >> > texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else would stop: no more
> >> Digest
> >> > or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more events. We'd stop
> >> adding new
> >> > projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web site (we have a
> >> long list
> >> > of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop planning new programs.
> >> >
> >> > The Board felt that hibernation would be a big mistake. Once we
> >> went into
> >> > hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard to re-emerge and
> >> rebuild
> >> > momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in us (not to mention
> >> the fact
> >> > that we wouldn't have anyone to write the grants). Most important, our
> >> > ability to fulfill our mission would be compromised.
> >> >
> >> > Then someone suggested charging a membership fee. This idea has been
> >> > proposed before, and I have always opposed it. Rhizome is for
> >> everyone, I
> >> > argued, not just for those who can afford it. I argued that we'd lose
> >> > thousands of members and that our community would become less diverse.
> >> >
> >> > Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between our expenses and
> >> what we can
> >> > raise from foundations, the government, earned income and other
> >> sources is
> >> > about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If every member gave $5,
> >> > Rhizome would be financially stable. We could continue to grow and
> >> serve
> >> > the community.
> >> >
> >> > The board argued that we pay to subscribe to magazines, to enter
> >> museums
> >> > and to see performances. We pay to attend festivals and
> >> conferences. Why
> >> > shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's online?
> >> >
> >> > Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say we introduced a
> >> > sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per year with "thank you
> >> > gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By paying $11 a year (or
> >> more if
> >> > you could afford it), you get access to everything: Raw, Rare,
> >> Digest, Net
> >> > Art News, the Calendar, Opportunity Listings, ArtBase, Commissions,
> >> etc.
> >> > Maybe we'd keep Raw free. Maybe we'd give new memebers a free trial
> >> period
> >> > so they could check out the goods before they have to pay.
> >> >
> >> > Would you pay the fee?
> >> >
> >> > What do you think about the idea of a sliding-scale membership fee for
> >> > Rhizome.org? Good idea? Bad idea?
> >> >
> >> > Do you think it would be better to go into hibernation?
> >> >
> >> > I am eagerly awaiting your responses.
> >> >
> >> > Sincerely,
> >> >
> >> > Mark
> >> >
> >> > + new media rugby
> >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> > +
> >> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >> > Membership Agreement available online at
> >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >> + new media rugby
> >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> +
> >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access!
> > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
> >
> > + new media rugby
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
>
>
> + new media rugby
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
responsibility onto community for maintaining it.
joseph
Quoting Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com>:
>
> I thought of this too, I think it could be a lot of fun to do, besides.
> We could do it through something like mp3.com to keep overhead low; some
> people could donate net.art-based cd covers, we could sell a few
> different versions of the cd. It could bring in a couple of bucks and
> wouldn't cost anything. I could talk to a couple of people, too, who
> could contribute stuff. It could be a nice compilation.
>
> It could also be pretty terrible, but we never know unless we try!
>
> -e.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Max Herman wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I was thinking a big fatty music CD, all proceeds to Rhizome,
> > I'd donate a song'r two.
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: joseph@electrichands.com
> >> Reply-To: joseph@electrichands.com
> >> To: Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>
> >> CC: list@rhizome.org
> >> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Membership fee?
> >> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:45:52 +0000
> >>
> >> Its time to talk about industry mergers. Forget the membership fees,
> >> very few
> >> will pay. If you are about to fold, either fold, or start a capital
> >> campaign
> >> to raise 7 figures. Fold or Bold.
> >>
> >> joseph
> >>
> >>
> >> Quoting Mark Tribe <mt@rhizome.org>:
> >>
> >> > Hi Rhizomers:
> >> >
> >> > I am hoping to start a discussion here on Raw about Rhizome's
> >> financial
> >> > situation and a possible solution. This email is rather long, but I'd
> >> > appreciate it if you'd take the time to read it through, give it some
> >> > thought, and let me know what you think.
> >> >
> >> > First, some background information. It will cost about $400,000 to
> >> operate
> >> > Rhizome.org this year. Here's how we spend it: $6,000 on
> >> administrative
> >> > fees (mostly processing credit card gifts); $122,000 on operating
> >> expenses
> >> > (phone, rent, web hosting, office supplies, etc.); $177,000 on payroll
> >> > costs (salaries, health insurance, payroll taxes, etc.); $93,000 on
> >> > professional fees (writers, commissions, consultants, etc.). These
> >> numbers
> >> > may seem high to some of you, but we actually run a very lean,
> >> efficient
> >> > operation. It simply costs a lot of money to run a nonprofit
> >> organization
> >> > that offers as many programs to as many people as we do.
> >> >
> >> > In the past, most of our revenue has come from foundations, but
> >> foundation
> >> > support is shrinking. We had hoped to make up the difference
> >> through earned
> >> > income from web hosting and online education, but those services are
> >> > getting off to a slow start. We have also, as you surely know,
> >> tried asking
> >> > for voluntary contributions. But so far this year only about 1% of our
> >> > 19,000 members have made gifts.
> >> >
> >> > The Rhizome Board of Directors met for its quarterly meeting last
> >> Friday.
> >> > The main topic was how to solve our financial problems. I proposed
> >> putting
> >> > the organization into hibernation mode. This would entail shutting
> >> down the
> >> > office, laying off the staff and discontinuing most of our
> >> programs. We
> >> > would keep the web site up, ask the SuperUsers to continue to publish
> >> > texts, and keep Raw online. But everything else would stop: no more
> >> Digest
> >> > or Net Art News, no more commissions, no more events. We'd stop
> >> adding new
> >> > projects to the ArtBase, stop improving the web site (we have a
> >> long list
> >> > of bugs to fix and features to add) and stop planning new programs.
> >> >
> >> > The Board felt that hibernation would be a big mistake. Once we
> >> went into
> >> > hibernation, they argued, it would be very hard to re-emerge and
> >> rebuild
> >> > momentum. Foundations would lose confidence in us (not to mention
> >> the fact
> >> > that we wouldn't have anyone to write the grants). Most important, our
> >> > ability to fulfill our mission would be compromised.
> >> >
> >> > Then someone suggested charging a membership fee. This idea has been
> >> > proposed before, and I have always opposed it. Rhizome is for
> >> everyone, I
> >> > argued, not just for those who can afford it. I argued that we'd lose
> >> > thousands of members and that our community would become less diverse.
> >> >
> >> > Then we looked at the numbers. The gap between our expenses and
> >> what we can
> >> > raise from foundations, the government, earned income and other
> >> sources is
> >> > about $100,000. That's about $5 per member. If every member gave $5,
> >> > Rhizome would be financially stable. We could continue to grow and
> >> serve
> >> > the community.
> >> >
> >> > The board argued that we pay to subscribe to magazines, to enter
> >> museums
> >> > and to see performances. We pay to attend festivals and
> >> conferences. Why
> >> > shouldn't we pay for Rhizome? Because it's online?
> >> >
> >> > Consider this hypothetical scenario. Let's say we introduced a
> >> > sliding-scale membership fee starting at $11 per year with "thank you
> >> > gifts" (T-shirts, etc.) at higher levels. By paying $11 a year (or
> >> more if
> >> > you could afford it), you get access to everything: Raw, Rare,
> >> Digest, Net
> >> > Art News, the Calendar, Opportunity Listings, ArtBase, Commissions,
> >> etc.
> >> > Maybe we'd keep Raw free. Maybe we'd give new memebers a free trial
> >> period
> >> > so they could check out the goods before they have to pay.
> >> >
> >> > Would you pay the fee?
> >> >
> >> > What do you think about the idea of a sliding-scale membership fee for
> >> > Rhizome.org? Good idea? Bad idea?
> >> >
> >> > Do you think it would be better to go into hibernation?
> >> >
> >> > I am eagerly awaiting your responses.
> >> >
> >> > Sincerely,
> >> >
> >> > Mark
> >> >
> >> > + new media rugby
> >> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> >> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> > +
> >> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >> > Membership Agreement available online at
> >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >> + new media rugby
> >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> +
> >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access!
> > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
> >
> > + new media rugby
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
>
>
> + new media rugby
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
Re: Rhizome Raw Religions of the World Survey 2002
Quoting Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com>:
> >
>
> It can. I can use it also to cover the idea of pantheism or all-theism
> or whatever you like, the idea that
> everything is god so there is no god worth distinguishing from the rest
> of us or it. There's no denial of god,
> though there's certainly a denial of god in the sense of the christian
> "guiding force" etc etc.
Well, a private definition of atheism I can understand, though you could see
how someone else might get confused.
> You know the
> hebrews also used to call god a word that was unpronouncable, because
> pronouncing it was a reduction
> of the entire concept. I kind of believe in that, but I also believe in
> its inverse. Which makes no
> sense to anyone, basically.
The word is completely universal which everyone can speak or not speak.
Either no reduction of concept, or reduce it completely - eliminate it as a
concept - it becomes a part of life - like your breathing.
> >
>
> Why save your hope for when you're dying?
I am speaking only of a specific instance of hope. Hope should be a constant
presence.
> >
> >I like the word agnostic with the definition...
> > a.One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God
> (or
> >Spiritual Center).
> >
>
> But what if you do know?
Thus the modifying description I followed with.
>
> Dogma is going to happen to everything. And it's also presumptuous to
> assume that you will give rise to dogmatic
> beliefs, Mr McElroy.
Where do you get the idea that I believe I will give rise to a religion or
church? I am quite an unsuitable prospect for that kind thing. I am making art
about beliefs and hopes - that's the extent of it.
>Maybe that's why so many religions ended up so
> sloppy- none of the major figureheads were
> arrogant enough to assume they would give rise to a church [Christ even
> said it, "those who would build a church
> in my name are dry canals." It's in the gnostic gospels anyway.]
Yes, but plenty of arrogant followers came behind. Have the Mormon and
Scientology faiths move beyond cult to church status yet? My belief is that
the major figureheads were arrogant enough to a) either plan a large following
or b) to believe they found a great truth and wanted to spread it far and why.
Either way, they were full of shit in my book (though probably very nice to
have an afternoon sit down with)
>
> >So I search for "knowing" but not "communicating"
> >
>
> If you know, you'll communicate anyway. Or something.
Perhaps.
> >
> >And if I ever get to "know" a god/great truth, I will cut off the hands of
> the
> >first person who writes down a word I say (just kidding).
> >
>
> A guy threatened to cut my hands off at dunkin donuts while I was on a
> coffee run for my workplace. Seems
> I grabbed his cup of coffee on accident. There is a great truth for you.
Good. I will write it down in my book of great truths. Right along side the
truth "no businessman can make art"
Joseph
> >
>
> It can. I can use it also to cover the idea of pantheism or all-theism
> or whatever you like, the idea that
> everything is god so there is no god worth distinguishing from the rest
> of us or it. There's no denial of god,
> though there's certainly a denial of god in the sense of the christian
> "guiding force" etc etc.
Well, a private definition of atheism I can understand, though you could see
how someone else might get confused.
> You know the
> hebrews also used to call god a word that was unpronouncable, because
> pronouncing it was a reduction
> of the entire concept. I kind of believe in that, but I also believe in
> its inverse. Which makes no
> sense to anyone, basically.
The word is completely universal which everyone can speak or not speak.
Either no reduction of concept, or reduce it completely - eliminate it as a
concept - it becomes a part of life - like your breathing.
> >
>
> Why save your hope for when you're dying?
I am speaking only of a specific instance of hope. Hope should be a constant
presence.
> >
> >I like the word agnostic with the definition...
> > a.One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God
> (or
> >Spiritual Center).
> >
>
> But what if you do know?
Thus the modifying description I followed with.
>
> Dogma is going to happen to everything. And it's also presumptuous to
> assume that you will give rise to dogmatic
> beliefs, Mr McElroy.
Where do you get the idea that I believe I will give rise to a religion or
church? I am quite an unsuitable prospect for that kind thing. I am making art
about beliefs and hopes - that's the extent of it.
>Maybe that's why so many religions ended up so
> sloppy- none of the major figureheads were
> arrogant enough to assume they would give rise to a church [Christ even
> said it, "those who would build a church
> in my name are dry canals." It's in the gnostic gospels anyway.]
Yes, but plenty of arrogant followers came behind. Have the Mormon and
Scientology faiths move beyond cult to church status yet? My belief is that
the major figureheads were arrogant enough to a) either plan a large following
or b) to believe they found a great truth and wanted to spread it far and why.
Either way, they were full of shit in my book (though probably very nice to
have an afternoon sit down with)
>
> >So I search for "knowing" but not "communicating"
> >
>
> If you know, you'll communicate anyway. Or something.
Perhaps.
> >
> >And if I ever get to "know" a god/great truth, I will cut off the hands of
> the
> >first person who writes down a word I say (just kidding).
> >
>
> A guy threatened to cut my hands off at dunkin donuts while I was on a
> coffee run for my workplace. Seems
> I grabbed his cup of coffee on accident. There is a great truth for you.
Good. I will write it down in my book of great truths. Right along side the
truth "no businessman can make art"
Joseph