Jim Andrews
Since the beginning
Works in Victoria Canada

ARTBASE (2)
BIO
Jim Andrews does http://vispo.com . He is a poet-programmer and audio guy. His work explores the new media possibilities of poetry, and seeks to synthesize the poetical with other arts and media.
Discussions (847) Opportunities (2) Events (14) Jobs (0)
DISCUSSION

Re: what is the most non_functional work on the Web done with Flash?


> What is making it "unflash" for you? For me it would be what neen.org did
> with their interface -- static no movement, yet an intricate way of
> accessing information (do not mind the information as already stated), but
> as I mentioned before, I think their approach is very "unflash for me,"
> what is unflash for you? levitated.net still looks likes flash/shockwave
to
> me; so maybe I am beating a dead horse by asking you, but if you think you
> can elaborate it would be great.

I didn't think neen was terrible. It was OK. The manifesto was a yawner. The
windowing was cool. The background was color blind and typeface happy,
clownish. The menu on a toolbar was cool. Concerning flash menus, check out
http://www.nobodyhere.com . The cursor changes were sloppy at neen. But
there weren't too many menu options and what was there was well focussed.
Intimations of the art app, awareness of a software art context, which is
cool. Like I said, I didn't check out much of the work, so if you have some
great links to work there, please do post em. I agree that the 'art app'
approach, the windowing, is relatively unusual. I made a tool for similar
types of windowing in shockwave stuff. There's no 'movie clip' in Director,
just individual sprites (unless blah blah...).

Various things come to mind concerning unflash flash or unx web.art. Go
fullscreen no browser chrome. Escape the browser. Make stuff that might as
well be a desktop exe or otherwise avoids the frame of the browser. Or if
you use the browser frame, use it consciously. Don't settle for 1-5 frames
per second unless it suits the piece. Know the strengths and weaknesses of
the tool. Learn some programming. Be aware of Flash or x cliches. If you use
them, use them consciously. Don't settle for all vectors unless it's
appropriate to the piece. Realize that you are in the realm of software art
if you're using Flash. Don't settle for a one-off. Work on something for
years once you find something worth making that you were made to make and no
one else. Surf all sorts of work. Follow all sorts of lists. Be a
polyartist. Help others not just yourself. Have an interesting links page.
Make the art a meaningful extension of your emotional and intellectual range
as a human being. And that of the viewer/wreader/player/whatever. Don't be
blind to the fact that there are thousands of companies involved from your
computer to the software in it to the internet connection through the phone
line or cable or whatever. Realize it will probably all disappear but try to
show people some real art that you mean down to your toes. Create stuff that
will make others not settle for less. Make it brilliant intellectually and
experientially. Further the art.

> > I'm not really talking about the average surfer, though, Eduardo. I'm
> talking about art.
>
> Wow, this sounds a bit elitist, but I can live with it. After all, not
> everyone is interested in film analysis, and here we are analysing
Flash --
> which is downplayed by the old school of net.artists by the way. Check
this
> out:
>
> "Net art became popular when it became a part of the American art market,
> which means a very superficial approach [developed]. It became known as
> flash animations and other drag and drop entertainment. It is a pity, but
it
> is probably a completely normal process."
> --Olia Lialina from:
> http://www.student.uib.no/~stud2081/utstilling/bosma.htm
>
> So, Old School could care less, but I care more.
> :)
>
> eduardoN.

Yeah, I'm with you on that, Eduardo, I care also. "Heroic" couldn't care
less, it's true, but once it started moving into software art, many of them
were without a paddle anyway. All that remained was to call it dead and beat
a hasty retreat. I've been involved in the Web since 95 too, and the
Internet before that, like many of us have, but I was never interested in
strictly conceptual net.art.

ja
http://vispo.com

DISCUSSION

Re: what is the most non_functional work on the Web done with Flash?


> > looks kinda flash to me, eduardo. any particular pieces from it you had in
> mind? i read the
> > manifesto. that's a real yawner. visited some of the "neenstar" sites and
> didn't find anything
> > notable, but i wasn't thorough.
> >
>
> I was only referring to the main interface. Well, when considering our
> discussion I am not making idelogical agendas part of the recommendation, as
> we are talking about flash as a form for delivering content -- what that
> content is, is another matter. I am mainly looking at how flash is being
> used based on the connotations that the material produced with the software
> carry up to this point. Most Flash based projects carry a certain look due
> to the processing of the Flash program; and based on this, I think that the
> interface of the neen site is interesting because it presents a layout
> contrary of what a flash site would normally look like. As to what the
> content the website offers is of course another matter.

I use Flash SWF imports in my Director work. Because it's good with vector animations. And I see
little point in being 'anti-Flash'.

But I do have some issues with it.

The main reason the Flash plugin is far more ubiquitous than the Shockwave plugin is because the
Flash plugin download is about 500kb whereas the Shockwave plugin download is about 7mb. And
this is congruent with a mentality that informs not only commercial work but also a lot of
net.art. What do people have time for? If people only have time for a quick fix, the art is tits
up. Of course, there is then the obligation to make it worth the time, to have a sense of the
time one is demanding and 'repay' that 'investment'. But we should question the standards that
are set by Flash work. All too often Flash work is a quick flash and not much more. We don't
expect enough from net.art.

And of course there are ways, in both Flash and Shockwave work, to stream information in as
needed.

Also, it seems like people too easily accept a 1-5 frames per second framerate. We ourselves are
about 60 Hz (cycles per second) wetware. When electric light first became public, it was set at
about 100-120 cycles per second. But that gave people headaches. So it was toned down to 60.
Depending on the animation, one can get away with anything from 16 to 30 frames per second and
have an acceptably smooth animation. 1-5 is just not there. It jerks around in a most annoying
manner. Unless of course that is somehow exploited to the benefit of the piece, which is doable
but requires artistic treatment.

Also, the look of Flash is dominated by vector images, which are not photographic in quality.
That vector-dominated look works in some cases, but it can easily become a 'flash' look in the
same way that some bitmaps look 'photoshopped' when they are indiscriminately and clichedly
filtered. Or the way that certain types of bitmap processing can be very Shockwave, though there
is less of imaging Lingo around because it involves programming.

The vector image is particularly good for cartoons. And indeed we see a lot of Flash cartoons or
cartoon-like look and mentality. I like some cartoons. Here's one by Andrei Karpov:
http://www.andrekarpov.com/hell.html . But a whole net.art of cartoon-like production is
unsettling and disappointing.

Don't accept the defaults. If you're going to use Flash, make it unflash. or its going to be
more of the same. I gather there are about two million people using Flash. I gather there are
about 200,000 using Director.

Of course flash work does not have to look cartoonish. http://levitated.net is a fairly rich
source of flash work that is also programmerly or otherwise different from the cartoon look of
vectors.

> > http://www.timehunt.com by Danny Kodicek and friends (UK/Slovenia) is
> atypical Flash, could be
> > Shockwave, for instance, if it wasn't so slow, which is more or less a
> flash fingerprint.
> > Kodicek is both a Director and a Flash developer. This is a funky learned
> neo platonist
> > pythagorean medieval game sort of like myst but the puzzles are harder.
> actually i found the
> > puzzles tedious. but some will find them fun. the design, in any case, is
> pretty funky and this
> > has some lofty *artistic ambition* combined with imaginative out of the
> box cerebration. this
> > took them a couple of years to make. i like that. so much stuff is slap it
> together.
>
> The commitment shows, but I think the site looks like a flash interface.
> Shockwave/Flash is not much of a difference in terms of looks -- except when
> you get into dynamic issues. The look can be considered the same and the
> average surfer would not be able to tell them a part.

I'm not really talking about the average surfer, though, Eduardo. I'm talking about art.

Flash and Director are best used together, if the project involves vector animations and
programming. When it comes to using bitmaps, Flash does not begin to compare with Director. Or
audio. Or video. Or 3D. And Lingo is 30-60 times faster than Actionscript.

And of course Flash and Director are not the only technologies relevant to net.art.

> A good example of
> this is Natalie Bookchin's metapet, which uses a shockwave interface with
> embeded flash movies. I know the programmers, so I know a little about the
> development of the project by using both programs: http://www.metapet.net .
> At this point, the platform starts to become irrelevant because what is
> important is what the project should be doing... new media is hard to define
> for this reasons.

Cartoons...yes, they'd be using Director as the programming shell and importing Flash SWF
cartoons and perhaps buttons into it.

ja

.

DISCUSSION

Re: what is the most non_functional work on the Web done with Flash?


> neen...
>
> http://www.neen.org/

looks kinda flash to me, eduardo. any particular pieces from it you had in mind? i read the
manifesto. that's a real yawner. visited some of the "neenstar" sites and didn't find anything
notable, but i wasn't thorough.

http://www.timehunt.com by Danny Kodicek and friends (UK/Slovenia) is atypical Flash, could be
Shockwave, for instance, if it wasn't so slow, which is more or less a flash fingerprint.
Kodicek is both a Director and a Flash developer. This is a funky learned neo platonist
pythagorean medieval game sort of like myst but the puzzles are harder. actually i found the
puzzles tedious. but some will find them fun. the design, in any case, is pretty funky and this
has some lofty *artistic ambition* combined with imaginative out of the box cerebration. this
took them a couple of years to make. i like that. so much stuff is slap it together.

ja

DISCUSSION

Re: what is the best work on the Web done with Flash?


> Interesting choices. I personally have a heavy bent for critical pieces
> like the Venera Padin project that you mentioned, but since you asked for
> interesting works in flash, I assumed it need not be heavy on the critical
> side as in Art.

It's true that the Venera/Padin piece (http://www.eale.hpg.ig.com.br/ppi/001.htm ) is
"critical", critical of the fucked up unjust starve or bomb or hack you to death world. Yet it
is also humorous and intelligent. Eloquent. It is also quite a well-done interface and you
proceed not simply via click click but via relatively intelligable interface controls developed
by Venera. And the sound is simple, original, and memorable.

It also handles the limitations of Flash quite well. Most Flash pieces jerk around at 1-3 frames
per second but were clearly intended to run at a higher framerate. Venera avoids those problems,
for the most part.

> The piece I mentioned I found appealing because it takes a
> rather unique approach for a work on the web. It does fall heavy on the
> design field, but there is definitely a crossover in terms of formal
> investigation; something that is very important in the art field as well.
>
> In any case, here is a piece everyone on the list is aware of by now, as
> Doron posted a link a few weeks ago, and I think it is just very challenging
> to understand while being beautiful at the same time:
>
> http://64.39.23.133/wirefire/movies/client2.swf
>
> I think it may combine some of the aesthetics I proposed with my initial
> recommendation complemented with an abstracted political bent.

I know Auriea Harvey has done some nice work in Flash.

A lot of the collaborations with Samyn she's done highlight their relationship and their
collaboration more than anything else.

I looked at the piece several times; it has quite a bit of variety in it. If that's her/their
music, that's pretty good. The audio was the best part of the piece so far as I experienced it.
That two frames per second framerate is really annoying. Lots of stamens and pistils and "i'm so
happy with you". a love collaboration. nice.

nice.

nice.

It's pretty flash.

do you know any unflash flash?

ja

DISCUSSION

Re: what is the best work on the Web done with Flash?


Sorry, the Venera/Padin URL is http://www.eale.hpg.ig.com.br/ppi/001.htm for Pan Paz imagine.

ja

> But it is really only the first of the links that I cited,
> http://www.eale.hpg.ig.com.br/ppi by
> Venera and Padin, that leaves a lasting impression of it being significant art, and
> Niemandsverdriet's site as a whole.
>
> It seems like it's so hard for people to put their all into this sort of work. Lots of
> resistance from the tool and the bandwidth limitations and I suppose many other things, but
> also, perhaps more than that, the difficulty of *thinking and feeling* through interactive
> multimedia.
>
> Though there are intellectual challenges to artists with new media concerning how to
> program the
> tools, the larger challenge is emotional and spiritual, to think and feel through new media in
> the same sorts of generative ways that writers feel through writing/language or musicians
> through the instrument.
>
> ja

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