This is in danger of becoming a K lovein. K does make some interesting
points. But, he is such a rude and obnoxious shit, that who really cares?
Cheers, Happy Xms and shame about Joe Strummer, Ivan
--
Ivan Pope
ivan@ivanpope.comwww.ivanpope.com"Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death"
Hunter S. Thompson
> From: "joseph (yes)" <
joseph@electrichands.com>
> Reply-To: "joseph (yes)" <
joseph@electrichands.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:06:47 +0000
> To: Eryk Salvaggio <
eryk@maine.rr.com>
> Cc:
list@rhizome.org> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: On Karei, AKA, What I Did On My Vacation
>
> I find that some of what Karai says about me is not without truth, so I start
> wondering if I am being converted or awakened. And then I get insecure, for if
> it is the latter, and I reject the conversion, what do I do about the truths I
> found? It means a hell of a lot of work. I have just gotten used to the idea
> that there is no identifiable truths, which conclusion results similarly from
> an uninformed knowledge of religion and rejection of its corrupted structures,
> and now that supposed foundation is shaking. I am also irritated by Karai's
> insistence upon his perfection when his obvious misreading of various posts
> and
> other mistakes are evidence to the contrary. In fact, it is this insistence,
> that makes me reject him while at the same time I am interested in what he has
> to say.
>
>
> joseph (cor e form art) + (porat per ance ist)
> frank + lyn - mc + El + roy
>
> go shopping ->
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> Quoting Eryk Salvaggio <eryk@maine.rr.com>:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> What's interesting is, after removing myself from the pit for a while, I
>> pretty much agree with a lot of what Karei has to say. There are some
>> things I don't quite accept- that religion is concerned with the
>> liberation of individuals from mass programming, for example. From my
>> experience with religion- which is limited in actual practice to
>> Protestant Catholicism; the ideas are there- as they are in all
>> religion- but are taught, more often than not, by people who abuse it.
>> But the point that confusing "religion" with "abuse of religion" is
>> extremely valid. But I still have to wonder, if something very true is
>> corrupted, and the corrupted version is taught, is it still the truth? I
>> mean the reason I have criticized organized religion in the past has
>> been because of the corruption of very true ideas.
>>
>> I've also, from matters removed from the internet art world, been
>> considering the role of delusion in my own life, and it has been
>> abundant. I have gone on an "art vacation", that is, I've ceased
>> creating any work, or contemplating work, and have instead focused on
>> the means with which I interact with other human beings; and a great
>> deal of work remains to be done concerning the means of manipulating
>> others as a manner of achieving what I want. I certainly have a bit of a
>> fascist streak; and I don't intend to. I think a truly powerful person
>> would have a mastery over thier own intent, and making sure it lines up
>> with thier actions, consistently. That has got to be really hard, and I
>> am starting to even figure out how this can be done. The problem is that
>> even what I "want" can be so obscured by denials of wanting it; or
>> distractions of wanting things, based on my own concept of who I am. It
>> is interesting to have an actual epiphany concerning my own desires;
>> where they come from and why I have them, what gaps they are addressed
>> to fill.
>>
>> I don't really agree with a lot of past statements; or the methods I've
>> used to put them across. It is not because of Karei that I've realized
>> this- I realized it on my own, by looking at myself long enough, and
>> then realized that a lot of what I was starting to see matched up with
>> some of Karei's observations. Not all, however. Like, I don't see a
>> problem with any of the art I've made. I like the work I've done lately.
>> I think it's good, and I really don't see my own ego in it at all. It
>> could be better though. It does deal with the external world, and what I
>> have seen and how I have interpreted it. I do wonder if there is a
>> possible method for creating art that isn't based on abstraction, but
>> still addresses some kind of internal reflection. I think there must be.
>> Suggestions would be welcome.
>>
>> The other interesting thing I've noticed is that I can have an
>> immediate, very real understanding of things in the field of Zen and
>> Sufism, but then I memorize them. The memorization process is a very
>> cold killer, I believe, for any real internal action (and memorization
>> isn't the same as internalization.) When I memorize something, I turn it
>> into a "trick," which is also something Karei had pointed out before.
>> Having a "trick" isn't good enough I don't think, I mean you can't apply
>> these things in a dead way. I think it's really nice to say to myself
>> that I'm really good at living in the moment, that I am a good person
>> all the time, that my ambitions are pure and clean, but in actuality
>> they may not even be. I can't tell until I really look at them. It may
>> be true for other people, so I am just posting some observations on the
>> process as a sort of greetings, since I have signed back on to the list
>> now that I am more accepting, and not so frustrated with things and
>> hopefully not as willing to toss tantrums, no matter how indirect. I'm
>> extremely hesitant to say this, but I will, anyway, but I feel I owe
>> Karei an apology for my past behavior towards him/her. A large part of
>> my behavior was, as was stated, knee jerk reactions to positions that
>> put me on the defensive. I don't take criticism very well; it's an ego
>> thing, it stems a lot from insecurity, though, and this perception that
>> I was getting kicked in the teeth put me into a pretty negative state. I
>> kind of think it's up to the individual to decide when to look at
>> themselves, but at the same time I think it is such an urgent matter for
>> people.
>>
>> I think it can be a bad thing to be entirely comfortable with who I am;
>> in a way where I live with responses that are entirely appropriate. I
>> think after looking for a while I've finally rediscovered the means of
>> surprising myself (and naturally, not by way of thrill seeking or
>> novelty hunting, like, not by distractions but by clumsy attempts at
>> awareness), which is a really great experience, even if it is, at the
>> same time, completely terrifying. But sometimes it's also funny; its not
>> like getting crushed but like being lifted up. I mean, here are some
>> questions: How do I get back to a true zero, a blank state free of
>> external influences? I mean look at everything I have: gender, race,
>> economy, nationality, social standing. I mean, being born with a single
>> parent or married parents or a parent who dies young or who is
>> overbearing, these things can change who think one thinks they are and
>> block access to who one actually is. It is almost infinite how many
>> things stand in the way of "the face we have before we are born," and it
>> does, indeed, take a great deal more work than reading books on zen and
>> sufism and memorizing slogans such as that one. I mean I have to wonder
>> if I am alone in reading books like that and pretending like I know all
>> of it.
>>
>> So I'm not going to make any real art for a while, I think that's good
>> to do, I kind of want to blank out the storage bin in my head for self
>> concept. I'm no master, obviously, and probably even writing this email,
>> on the subject of "I," is a kind of arrogance, but it's not harming
>> others, I don't believe, so I am not very worried. I think there's a
>> level beyond a level, I mean you can say "I do A because of B, and I do
>> B because of C," but sometimes its good to say, "I do, and why?" and not
>> have a very linear explanation for it. I've come up with some surprising
>> concepts that way, I mean that's what surprises me about myself.
>>
>> Also, I do believe all people have the capacity to "become good" but I
>> think I'd rather define it as "becoming true," and I don't agree that
>> one either is or isn't. I think there is a process where a lot of it is
>> in between, and I think being in between can make some people really
>> beautiful, if only in pockets, because there will be pockets of being
>> true, followed by stumbling. I guess I don't want to condemn people for
>> stumbling, but I see Karei as creating a sort of spiritual ashphalt
>> where if you stumble on the truth, you scrape your knees. I think I have
>> preferred the soft grass approach, where people can stumble and lie down
>> for a while in the delusional world. I guess I have always figured that
>> if I stumble it means I am trying, but I do need to get up again as fast
>> as possible, instead of focusing on the nobility of "try."
>>
>> Anyway, that's just what I have been thinking about. I kind of feel like
>> Karei deserves a bit of credit, I mean, beyond arguments over whether
>> mailing lists are the place to approach this sort of thing, which is
>> definately arguable on some level, but if it has had some effect on
>> what's been happening lately [and it's entirely possible] then I think
>> the point is mute.
>>
>>
>> -e.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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