Ivan Pope
Since the beginning
Works in Brighton United States of America

BIO
In the place where analogue and digital overlap, that's why you will find me in the kitchen at parties.
Everything is at my site, http://blog.ivanpope.com
Discussions (225) Opportunities (0) Events (0) Jobs (0)
DISCUSSION

Re: Mouchette - special event this Sunday at Postmasters


> From: "Eryk Salvaggio" <eryk@maine.rr.com>
>
> The site is about a fictional character who is perpetually 13, perpetually
> inviting sexual encounters, and perpetually contemplating suicide. Perhaps
> you should familiarize yourself with the work before talking about how
> "wrong" I am about it and trying to assert how "right" you are.

See Eryk, this is where I had problems with your initial posting. I went to
look at the site. And found that you had picked out parts of the site with
blatant sexual overtones. But when I just visited via the front page, I
couldnt see that the site was so bad. If you took it at face value, you
might think this is one strange and smart 13 yr old. If you take it with an
art hat on (I know, I know, but we are used to reading work, surely) then it
walks an interesting line between various subjects. But I just cant see how
it is 'perpetually inviting sexual encounters, and perpetually contemplating
suicide perpetually'. And even if it is, does it have no redeeming value? Is
it not smart or witty or disturbing or spooky. Does it not make you think
about why or what or how?

As for me asserting how right I am, god, you do make it hard to have a
discussion.

> now I see that my view that Mouchette is about a 13 year old girl and has
> a strong sexual tone is "preposterous." Good work guys!

If your view was just that the site was 'about a 13 year old girl and has a
strong sexual tone' then we would be in total agreement. But your view is
that the site is bad, abusive, inexcusable, misogynistic etc and has no
redeeming value in an art sense.

>> Anyway, it's not just me that doesn't agree with you sentiments. I don't
>> think anyone on Rhizome agreed with you, or thought you even had made any
>> sort of argument.
>
> I simply stated the truth. My
> statements are simply correct, and are above interpretation.

Yes, yes. Of course. 24 years old and Master of the Universe. Now go have a
lie down in a darkened room.

Cheers,
Ivan

DISCUSSION

Re: Mouchette - special event this Sunday at Postmasters


> Ivan, you should relax, you sound paranoid. Let me give you some reasons
why
> I am not Mouchette.

> 5. The intent of that post was not to generate debate. The fact of the
> matter is, Mouchette is a web site about sexuality and revolves around a
13
> year old girl. There is no debating this.

I'm sure we could debate it till the cows come home. I mean, even if we
accept that the site is 'about' 'sexuality' and a '13 year old' 'girl', we
can still debate it.

>This was also pointed out by
> Josephine Bosma- that the charector of Mouchette is a disgusting male
> fantasy. There is no denying this ...

You are just to dogmatic. What is not to be denied? That the character of
Mouchette is 'a disgusting male fantasy'. Is it the fantasy that is
disgusting? Or the content of the fantasy? Or the fact that it is male? On
what basis is it male? Why are things not to be denied?
I DENY IT.

I'd also like to point out that even if the Mouchette site was about a 13
year old girl when it was launched, it must now be about a 20 year old
woman.

>The post made its point and was
> actually "discussed", something which is a bit of a coup for Rhizome.
> However, if Ivan Pope doesn't agree with my sentiments I guess they're all
> for naught.

Well, we're all sentient beings. If you give us almost anything that is
totally preposterous we will jump in to discuss it, for a nanosecond at
least.
Anyway, it's not just me that doesn't agree with you sentiments. I don't
think anyone on Rhizome agreed with you, or thought you even had made any
sort of argument. That said, I'm sure we all respect your right to strike
such a position.
Sentiment is a strange and dangerous word.

Cheers,
Ivan

> 6. The presence of curse words shouldn't be confused with "outrage." The
> sleaziness that careerist artists will sink to in order to be considered
> more "controversial" and "relevant" is actually pretty hilarious. I have
to
> wonder who wrote the press release in question, if Mouchette did it
himself
> or if the Postmasters Gallery people did. I would think the Postmasters
> people could care less about my opinion. As you say Ivan, it is clear that
> neither rhizome or mouchette- nor myself- really matter in the grand
scheme
> of things.
>
> -e.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ivan Pope" <ivan@ivanpope.com>
> To: "Eryk Salvaggio" <eryk@maine.rr.com>
> Cc: <list@rhizome.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: Mouchette - special event this Sunday at
> Postmasters
>
>
> > > If people feel like they should associate themselves with me in order
to
> > > promote thier own work I guess I should be flattered. It's actually
> pretty
> > > interesting to be thought of as so important that my opinions on
peoples
> > > work have got to be "reckoned with" in press releases and project
> > > announcements.
> > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Postmasters Gallery/Magda" <magda@thing.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > > The power of the Mouchette persona, and its ability to provoke
> > heated
> > > > > > debate around contemporary political and sexual issues has once
> > again
> > > > > > been demonstrated in the last few days by the exchange that has
> > taken
> > > > > > place at http://rhizome.org. Contributors have speculated on
the
> > > > > > identity, and more particularly the gender, of the artist
> > responsible
> > > > > > for http://www.mouchette.org, and argued about what they have
> called
> > > > > > a 'glorification of sexual abuse and a celebration of pedophilia
> > > > > > against young girls.'
> >
> > I don't think we argued much. Eryk made a post that seemed pretty
strange
> > and off centre to me. While he was obviously trying to generate some
> debate,
> > I don't think it really worked.
> > I think the timing of Eryk's out of the blue contribution on Rhizome is
> > curious, being swiftly followed by the use of the responses in this
press
> > release.
> > Again, Eryk is outraged by the use of his words:
> > ' Jesus Christ, I am like a fucking publicist for shitty artists
> everywhere.
> > Don't people have to ask my permission before using my words to promote
> > themselves? '
> > I think Eryk doth protest too much. I think he is closer to Mouchette
than
> > he has yet let on. If he is not Mouchette, then he is close to the
throne.
> > Maybe all will be revealed on Sunday, but I wouldn't count on it.
> > While some carefully constructed game is being played out, it is clear
> that
> > neither Mouchette nor Rhizome really matter in the broader scheme of
> things.
> > Cheers,
> > Ivan
> >
> >
>

DISCUSSION

Re: Chalking Outside Rhizome...


>
> sounds like fun. unfortunately, i'll be in cambridge that day (giving a
> talk at the mit comparative media studies program). francis will be at id
> magazine judging the interactive design awards. rachel will be working at
> her other job that day. and alexis is planning to take the day off. so it
> doesn't look like anybody will be there on the 25th.

Knock Knock
Who's there?
Rhizome
No-one home
We're not chalking
We're off talking

(We're not skiving, we're networking)

DISCUSSION

Re: invitation to participate: your favorite four letter words


ivan &/or pope

--
Ivan Pope
ivan@ivanpope.com
www.ivanpope.com
www.tochki-inc.com

"Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death"
Hunter S. Thompson
----- Original Message -----
From: "neil jenkins" <neil@devoid.co.uk>
To: "rhizome" <list@rhizome.org>
Cc: "marc.garrett" <marc.garrett@furtherfield.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: RHIZOME_RAW: invitation to participate: your favorite four
letter words

> neil
>
> :)
>
>
> On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 11:40 am, marc.garrett wrote:
>
> > mine is 'marc'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> "Eryk" is my favorite four letter word.
> >>
> >> -e.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "D. Jean Hester" <jenajunk@hotmail.com>
> >> To: <list@rhizome.org>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 4:08 PM
> >> Subject: RHIZOME_RAW: invitation to participate: your favorite four
> >> letter
> >> words
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hey Rhizomers,
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to ask you to contribute/participate in my latest
> >>> collaborative-participative-what-the-hell-is-it-ART-THANG. (FYI, I
> >>> have
> >>> included my bio at the end of this email.)
> >>>
> >>> It's SO EASY: send me a list of your favorite four letter words (as
> > many
> >> or
> >>> as few as you want). Yeah, and remember, four letter doesn't have to
> > mean
> >>> f*ck, sh*t, d*mn, although those certainly are glorious four letter
> > words.
> >>> Hand, post, June, list, dive, chow, Oslo, poke are all perfectly
> >> reasonable
> >>> four letter words as well.
> >>>
> >>> The words will be used in a video installation planned for a
> >>> music/video/art/dance-like-crazy-people event at the Hollywood
> >>> Athletic
> >> Club
> >>> in Los Angeles for May 17. The words will be placed in a database,
> >>> and
> >>> reconfigured in odd random pairings based on an algorithm, along with
> > odd
> >>> random pairings of video footage.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, and send those words in to jenajunk@hotmail.com! I need a
> >>> lot
> > of
> >>> them...
> >>>
> >>> BIO: <warning: art jargon ahead>
> >>> D. Jean Hester is a media artist living in Los Angeles, California,
> > whose
> >>> work combines programming, databases, film and video to create
> > interactive
> >>> pieces for both physical installations and online platforms. Hester
> >> wishes
> >>> to involve users as active, thinking, engaged
> >>> participant-collaborators
> > in
> >>> the creation of art. Her work explores the nature of interactivity
> >>> and
> >>> audience/user participation, and what happens when a work is no
> >>> longer a
> >>> stand-alone authored environment with a tightly controlled
> > author-defined
> >>> outcome, but when the users themselves are contributing/collaborating
> >>> through the use of interactivity (be it physical real-world
> >>> performative
> >>> actions or interaction with a database or some other program). In
> >>> this
> >>> scenario the artist's intention is only part of the puzzle - the art
> > does
> >>> not exist until it is engaged. Without a user as a contributor, it
> >>> is
> >> only
> >>> a potentiality - not an actuality. Her work has been shown in
> >>> numerous
> >>> exhibits, festivals, and screenings in the United States, Canada, and
> >>> Mexico, and can be seen online at www.divestudio.org.
> >>>
> >>> -- D. Jean Hester
> >>> www.divestudio.org
> >>> Interviewer: "Must an artist be a programmer to make truly original
> > online
> >>> art?"
> >>> John Simon: "Truly original? You Modernist! Whether you make art or
> >>> not,
> >>> understanding programming is an amazing understanding."
> >>> from "Code as Creative Writing: An Interview with John Simon"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
> >>> http://join.msn.com/?pagethatures/junkmail
> >>>
> >>> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >>> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> >>> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >>> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >>> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >>> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >>> +
> >>> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >>> Membership Agreement available online at
> >>> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>>
> >>
> >> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> >> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> >> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> >> -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> >> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> >> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> >> +
> >> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> >> Membership Agreement available online at
> >> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
> + ti esrever dna ti pilf nwod gniht ym tup
> -> post: list@rhizome.org
> -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> -> subscribe/unsubscribe: http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> +
> Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> Membership Agreement available online at http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
>

DISCUSSION

Re: Mouchette - special event this Sunday at Postmasters


> If people feel like they should associate themselves with me in order to
> promote thier own work I guess I should be flattered. It's actually pretty
> interesting to be thought of as so important that my opinions on peoples
> work have got to be "reckoned with" in press releases and project
> announcements.
>
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Postmasters Gallery/Magda" <magda@thing.net>
> > >
> > > > The power of the Mouchette persona, and its ability to provoke
heated
> > > > debate around contemporary political and sexual issues has once
again
> > > > been demonstrated in the last few days by the exchange that has
taken
> > > > place at http://rhizome.org. Contributors have speculated on the
> > > > identity, and more particularly the gender, of the artist
responsible
> > > > for http://www.mouchette.org, and argued about what they have called
> > > > a 'glorification of sexual abuse and a celebration of pedophilia
> > > > against young girls.'

I don't think we argued much. Eryk made a post that seemed pretty strange
and off centre to me. While he was obviously trying to generate some debate,
I don't think it really worked.
I think the timing of Eryk's out of the blue contribution on Rhizome is
curious, being swiftly followed by the use of the responses in this press
release.
Again, Eryk is outraged by the use of his words:
' Jesus Christ, I am like a fucking publicist for shitty artists everywhere.
Don't people have to ask my permission before using my words to promote
themselves? '
I think Eryk doth protest too much. I think he is closer to Mouchette than
he has yet let on. If he is not Mouchette, then he is close to the throne.
Maybe all will be revealed on Sunday, but I wouldn't count on it.
While some carefully constructed game is being played out, it is clear that
neither Mouchette nor Rhizome really matter in the broader scheme of things.
Cheers,
Ivan