curt cloninger
Since the beginning
Works in Canton, North Carolina United States of America

ARTBASE (7)
BIO
Curt Cloninger is an artist, writer, and Associate Professor of New Media at the University of North Carolina Asheville. His art undermines language as a system of meaning in order to reveal it as an embodied force in the world. His art work has been featured in the New York Times and at festivals and galleries from Korea to Brazil. Exhibition venues include Centre Georges Pompidou (Paris), Granoff Center for The Creative Arts (Brown University), Digital Art Museum [DAM] (Berlin), Ukrainian Institute of Modern Art (Chicago), Black Mountain College Museum + Arts Center, and the internet. He is the recipient of several grants and awards, including commissions for the creation of new artwork from the National Endowment for the Arts (via Turbulence.org) and Austin Peay State University's Terminal Award.

Cloninger has written on a wide range of topics, including new media and internet art, installation and performance art, experimental graphic design, popular music, network culture, and continental philosophy. His articles have appeared in Intelligent Agent, Mute, Paste, Tekka, Rhizome Digest, A List Apart, and on ABC World News. He is also the author of eight books, most recently One Per Year (Link Editions). He maintains lab404.com, playdamage.org , and deepyoung.org in hopes of facilitating a more lively remote dialogue with the Sundry Contagions of Wonder.
Discussions (1122) Opportunities (4) Events (17) Jobs (0)
DISCUSSION

Re: Net Art Market


Hi Jason,

Here are some money-making models:

1.
T. just posted this:
http://www.softwareartspace.com
[sell software for looping projection purposes]

2.
Same artist loops as above, hard-wired into LCD screens, framed, signed, and sold as animated paintings:
http://www.bitforms.com/artist_levin.html
[if it's in a frame and signed, it must be "real" art]

3.
Here is some net art for sale on a ROM:
http://youworkforthem.com/product.php?sku=P0034
[take your old experimental sites offline, put them on a ROM, and sell the ROM. The catch -- you have to have had some actual visitors to your site who liked it.]

4.
Here is an entire artists' hard drive for sale on a ROM:
http://www.eastgate.com/catalog/Praystation.html
[make your .fla files public, and if your action scripting is interesting enough, people will buy it just to view and re-purpose your source code.]

5.
a gallery show involving physical ephemera related to ethereal digital art projects:
http://nothing.org/net_ephemera/
[with art in the age of mechanical reproduction, don't sell the infinitely reproducible art itself, sell the finite incidental crap associated with the art. scarce crap is more salable than abundant quality.]

6.
thing.net has a regular online art auction. some of the pieces are digital.
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://auction.thing.net/
[trick somebody into believing that a signed website on a ROM (as opposed to the exact same website, unsigned, online) might someday be worth money in the art market.]

7.
charge a subscription fee (by day, month, or year) to view the art website. The site is password protected, it gives a few samples away for free, and then you have to subscribe to see the rest of it.
http://www.scottmccloud.com
http://www.demian5.com
[the porn site model. the salon.com model. of course, you have to have art that somebody might want to view repeatedly after they've seen it once, and you have to have art that somebody might want to pay money to view at all in the first place.]

8.
use net art as a prototype/portfolio/proving ground, and then get hired to do paying work that's related.
http://projects.c505.com/projects/ascii_rock/index.html [the original give-away]
http://www.machineproject.com/ASCII_BUSH/ [the turbulence grant]
http://www.partizan.us/musicvideos/ais/beck.html [the commercial gig]
[this is the artist as performer model. you get paid for gigs (installations, performaces, VJ generative projections of band tours).]

9.
Get grants and commissions.

10.
Win contests.

+++++++++++++++++

"Digital" art to me doesn't seem so hard to sell. Like the McCoys have those database pop film libraries on various themes. They are digital and use software, but they are also physical installation objects and you can sell them like you'd sell a painting or a sculpture. The challenge is selling "net art" which is dependent on the network, art that is infinitely reproducible and already available to be experienced by anyone anywhere anytime. That's a whole different can of worms.

Maybe nobody responded because the "how to make online art salable" topic has been discussed since 1996 with no real "solution."

Novelists are forever lamenting the fact that nobody reads anymore, but what they are really lamenting is the fact that nobody reads them. Similarly, net artists who ask "how can we make money off of net art" are often asking, "how can I make money off of my net art?"

On the commercial net before the bubble burst, the burning question was, "how can I make money off the net?" After the bubble burst, the facile conclusion was, "I can't make money off the net." The better question would have been, "what is the net good for, and how might I use its strengths to forward my business." Similarly, the better question for the net artist might be, "what is the net good for, and how might I use its strengths to forward my artistic practice?" It probably invovles keeping your day job.

Steve Dietz quotes Eddo Stern who proposes that the net itself is more interesting than any single piece of net art.

Dietz goes on to say, "Contemporary installation art is not necessarily the right context in which to understand net art. It is the net itself. The system. In this Twilight Zone of contemporary practice, we may, in fact, need to get up from our couches and adjust the TV set to understand what constitutes 'greatness,' whether as producers of or participants in net art."

(full article at: http://www.afsnitp.dk/onoff/Texts/dietzwhyhavether.html )

I'm not dissing you, Jason. I think yours is a fair question to ask, and I don't pretend to know your motives in asking it (maybe you could share your motives). I just think there are more interesting questions to ask now in regards to net art.

peace,
curt

Jason Van Anden wrote:

> I posted a topic a while ago requesting "payment schemes for
> digital/online art, sucessful or not". I got one email back -
> privately.
>
> I have a few theories as to why this topic may be considered poison,
> but then again maybe it was bad timing or my choice of title. At any
> rate, I feel this is a vitally important issue so I am giving it
> another try:
>
> Does anyone out there know how to sell digital art? Examples would be
> appreciated. If you consider this a toxic topic - could you clue me
> in as to why you feel that way?
>
> Jason Van Anden
> www.smileproject.com


DISCUSSION

Re: Re: Re: RRR Revving: Up:the rapture and anti-environmentalism


Hi Pall,

No offense taken. I was just being fiesty.

I've had lots of fruitful conversations at rhizome about a number of
topics (not all directly art-related). And I've had a handful of
fruitful conversations about "hot topic" ethical issues, but almost
all of those have been in one-on-one settings (either in person or
via email). A conversation is fruitless when everyone is talking
from prefab polemic positions and no one is listening or being
personally vulnerable (some cynics would say this is all that ever
happens anyway, but my experience indicates otherwise). The trick is
finding the appropriate forum for the appropriate topic. Some
sensationalist US talk shows (jerry springer, crossfire) go out of
their way to mismatch the most inappropriate topics with the most
inappropriate fora. And some viewers enjoy the contrived spectacles
that ensue. I don't watch television.

As far as keeping a topic going, the solution is rarely to post
asking people to keep the topic going [such a post is off-topic].
Just keep posting about the topic. If someone wants to dialogue,
you've got a conversation. If not, register as a second user and
dialogue with yourself. Or let the topic fizzle out, spend time with
your family, go on a run, write an article on the non-linear
narrative implications of social networks, take a nap, listen to the
Ramones, grade student papers, post another more interesteing topic,
check your referrer logs, walk up into the hills, eat chicken salad,
watch another episode of Flying Circus on DVD.

rock & roll ain't no pollution,
curt

At 9:44 AM +0000 3/27/05, Pall Thayer wrote:
>Re-awakening this thread just slightly, as I've been out of town for
>a few days. Curt, I wasn't psychoanalyzing you. My post was as much
>about myself or anyone else. I didn't mean to offend you. I was just
>wondering out loud why we do this. I would be interested in knowing,
>in the context of wondering about the fizzling out of discussions,
>what makes the discussions "fruitless". What would make them
>fruitfull?
>
>Pall

DISCUSSION

Re: Re: RRR Revving: Up:the rapture and anti-environmentalism


[note to self: just lay low. Pall has pschoanalyzed your secret fears incicively, and you're only hope is to wait for the dialogue to quietly die down. Yes, you've had these same kinds of dialogues ad nauseum online since 1996, but it's not that you're bored to tears with them and you realize they are utterly fruitless spectacles in the context of mailing lists and bulletin boards. it's that your beliefs are soft. You have always shown yourself cowed by the airtight logic of the rhizome intelligencia, and the inassailability of thier largely inherited progressive positions has been your undoing time and time again! Shh! Not another word! They might hear you.] Don't post! No don't hit post! Stop! Sto

vroooooommmm!!!!

++++++++++++++++

Pall Thayer wrote:

Why are we afraid to discuss our points of view in a public setting when
we know that the majority of the group is going to disagree with us?
Aren't we firm enough in our beliefs? Or perhaps it has to do with how
well we know our adversary. How much does he or she really know about my
opinion/point of view? Is it more or less than what I know? And how much
do I know about his or her opinion/point of view? The less I know, the
more insecure I'm going to feel in such a discussion and the more I'm
going to hope that it fades away.

DISCUSSION

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:the rapture and anti-environmentalism


Hi Pall,

1. It's way off-topic.
2. If I email tim, it's just two people talking. If I post it here, it has the makings of a big emotional debate.
3. I don't want to have a big emotional debate (particularly on gay rights and creationism).

I hope that's OK.

curt

Pall Thayer wrote:

> Actually, I'm sure many of us would be interested in seeing the
> response. If that's not possible, I would be interested in knowing why
> not.
>
> Pall
>
> curt cloninger wrote:
> > Hi Tim,
> >
> > This one has "off-list" written all over it. I'll send you an
> email.
> >
> > peace,
> > curt
> >
> >
> > t.whid wrote:
> >
> >
> >>xx going way, way off the subject of new media art xx
> >>
> >>++++
> >>
> >>I would be interested to hear from Curt, who seems to be (perhaps
> not
> >>moderate, but at least) a rational christian, why do oppose gay
> >>marriage?
> >>
> >>Is it simply because of the 'abomination' passage in the bible? If
> >>so,
> >>how do you square the fact that it seems that there are plenty of
> >>laws
> >>in the old testament of the bible that modern christians happily
> >>ignore.
> >>
> >>But yet they get stuck on this one. I'm curious why.
> >>
> >>I won't reply or try to argue with you (we've both over the years
> >>probably come to the conclusion that that is not very productive on
> >>either side).
> >>
> >>Just curious.
> >>
> >>If you feel open, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on
> >>evolution as well. The opposition to which I don't understand one
> >>bit.
> >>Being raised catholic and attending catholic schools, I can tell
> you
> >>that evolution and catholicism seem to coexist with no problem.
> >>
> >>take care,
> >>
> >>
> >>On Mar 22, 2005, at 3:33 PM, curt cloninger wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I'm probably not what you'd call a moderate Christian. I walk up
> >>
> >>to
> >>
> >>>strangers on the street and pray with them. You and I disagree
> >>
> >>about
> >>
> >>>most of the issues you mention (abortion, euthanasia, gay
> marriage,
> >>>Christian intention of US founding fathers). The point is, there's
> >>
> >>a
> >>
> >>>way to love and respect people with whom you disagree.
> >>>
> >>>As far as being the defender of orthodox Christianity versus
> >>>contemporary misunderstandings and oversimplifications of it, no
> >>>thanks. It's taken me two days to refute 1 Bill Moyers
> >>
> >>overstatement.
> >>
> >>>http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew13:9-17
> >>>
> >>>peace,
> >>>curt
> >>
> >>===
> >><twhid>http://www.mteww.com</twhid>
> >>===
> >>
> >>
> >
> > +
> > -> post: list@rhizome.org
> > -> questions: info@rhizome.org
> > -> subscribe/unsubscribe:
> http://rhizome.org/preferences/subscribe.rhiz
> > -> give: http://rhizome.org/support
> > -> visit: on Fridays the Rhizome.org web site is open to non-members
> > +
> > Subscribers to Rhizome are subject to the terms set out in the
> > Membership Agreement available online at
> http://rhizome.org/info/29.php
> >
>
> --
> _______________________________
> Pall Thayer
> artist/teacher
> http://www.this.is/pallit
> http://pallit.lhi.is/panse
>
> Lorna
> http://www.this.is/lorna
> _______________________________